Ackerman, Howard (with Harriet Ackerman)
The following is an excerpt from He Wahi Mo‘olelo no nā Ke‘ei ma Kona Hema, a collection of traditions, historical accounts and kama‘āina recollections of Ke‘ei, South Kona, Hawai‘i. It is used with the permission of Kepā Maly, Cultural Historian and Resources Specialist.
The excerpt has been edited by Ka‘iwakīloumoku for typographical errors only; the orthography is presented exactly as it is found in He Wahi Mo‘olelo no nā Ke‘ei ma Kona Hema.
Howard Ackerman was born at Kalamawai‘awa‘awa in 1932. On both sides of his family, he is descended from traditional residents of lands between Kalamawai‘awa‘awa and Hōkūkano. While growing up, Uncle was inquisitive, and spent much of his time out of school traveling the land, working from the mountain lands to the shore, and fishing with elder Hawaiian residents of the Ke‘ei - Kealakekua region. From his own parents and area kūpuna, he learned Hawaiian customs, practices, and values, which he has lived throughout his life. He and his wife, have in-turn shared their experiences and the knowledge gained from their elders with youth of the area.
Uncle is a noted fisherman, and in the interview he shared detailed descriptions of fishing the waters between Ke‘ei and Ka‘awaloa, observing that there have been significant changes in the health of the fisheries over the years. He described various methods of fishing, and the importance of caring for the resources. Uncle also described the application of the same kinds of values and practice in land use and stewardship. While sharing the recollections of families and practices, Uncle Howard referenced a number of place names along the coast from Ke‘ei to Kealakekua. In particular he noted that the near shore pond at Kalamawai‘awa‘awa – Kapahukapu, was always noted as a place of importance, and known for its healing qualities. He believes that care of the land and ocean resources, and cultural places is very important. He is also very concerned about the protection of access (native trails and old roads), and protection of shore line for future generations; and laments the loss of these resources to date.
On August 30th, Uncle Howard joined a small group of kūpuna and area kama‘āina for an interview on the shore of Ke‘ei. For additional descriptions of sites, practices and customs, see that interview. Uncle Howard granted his release of the two interviews on January 7, 2003.
HA: …I used to go dive with them and I look at them and I come up and I laugh and I used to tell them, “This guy a good diver?” They said, “Yes,” and I look at them and I laugh… Kids before, I was thirteen years old I out dive ‘em you know. Because I say we were kids and we were diving akule net you know so we used to going down this real deep water.
KM: Yes, amazing! Mahalo to both of you, thank you so much for being willing to talk story a little bit this morning. I want to just ask, it’s August 5th, 2002 it’s just about eleven o’clock now. We’re sitting down here at your home. And could I please have your full name and date of birth?
HA: Howard, that’s all, Ackerman.
KM: Howard Ackerman. But you said you had a punahele name when you were…
HA: Well, you know that was only that bunch, I don’t know why they didn’t give me that name…that’s regardless, nobody really knows that name.
KM: [chuckles] Yes, okay. And you hānau when?
HA: July 23, 1932.
KM: Oh, aloha. You come seventy just last month?
HA: Yes, yes. I just got seventy.
HA: We had another old house my brother and my sister were born right out here.
KM: You were born down makai here?
HA: No, I think I was the only one, went to the hospital.
KM: Ahh. But your mama and papa were living here?
HA: Yes. There was another old house on the other side by the houses now before.
HA: We were born over there but all our pictures were taken here on the pūne‘e outside on the porch. Big old house with a big porch.
KM: What ‘āina are we in now?
HA: This property actually was Kahiwa.
KM: Kahiwa, oh.
HA: Walter’s mama. Aunty Sarah you know, and then daddy when live over here. Aunty Sarah them later moved there, she lived there, Walter them.
HA: And then we moved there when we were kids and then Walter them lived there from behind in the old house.
KM: I see. Oh.
HA: Before they went to Miloli‘i.
KM: ‘Ae. Oh. And you, now you basically as an Ackerman your family connects also to the Hōkūkano lands like that yeah?
HA: Yes, yes.
KM: But, your papa was part-Hawaiian also?
HA: I think had, because their mother was a Yates.
KM: Ahh. Julian Yates…daughters?
HA: No. Julian Yates, Julian Yates and my father are first cousins.
KM: I see.
HA: And Mrs. Kimi them [thinking] the Wassmans, they all tied together.
KM: Okay. And mama?
HA: Yes, Kaolulu from down here.
KM: Kaolulu, okay. Ohh.
HA: And then she had like Louie’s mama.
HA: Then Kapule, Lucy, that’s Mona them. And then Uncle Joe.
KM: ‘Ae, Gaspar mā.
KM: Hmm. So you’ve lived down here all of your life really?
HA: Yes up, and down here.
KM: This is Waipuna‘ula or we’ve just moved into [looking at Register Map 1595]… You know it was really interesting just listening to you talk, describe a little bit this ‘āina here. So basically we’re I guess right around in this area or something? [pointing to area on map]
KM: Over here on the map. On the south edge of the bay, in the Kalama lands. I see so Kalamawai‘awa‘awa like that. Did your grandfather them have a… I know Ackermans, you folks, the family did some pineapple and stuff too, right?
HA: When they first came they were at Waipi‘o.
HA: Planting rice.
HA: Yes. Then later went to Ka‘ū. My father was born in Ka‘ū, now what’s that pu‘u just past Nā‘ālehu, I mean Honu‘apo going toward Pāhala?
KM: Pu‘u‘enuhe and Makanau, Hīlea.
HA: Yes, with the Searles like that.
KM: That’s right in Hīlea.
HA: That’s our family see. And then we used to stop there and he used to sit on the car every time look mauka. So I used to tell my mama, “Mama, why we stop here every time when we go Hilo?” And he always, daddy go outside and sit down and look up that hill? She said, “That’s where daddy come from that’s where he was born and raised.”
HA: And I said, “Oh yes!” [saying good morning to someone] That’s what I…
KM: So papa them was…?
HA: Yes, Ka‘ū.
HA: And later moved here.
KM: ‘Ae. At some point, didn’t Ackerman and Bruner them or something, did you ever hear about the Hala Canning Company like? Fruit canning you know they were into the pineapple and stuff like that? That was pau then by the time you were born?
HA: That was pau.
KM: Yes. Ohh.
HA: There was a lot of things that kind of happened, and my father he don’t talk about it you know what I mean.
KM: I see, I see.
HA: Because I think hurt, because you see my father took care of the lands they had all on that side, before. And the ones who were living in Honolulu and the younger ones they all went to school so he had one sister, Weeks, they kind of took care everything because you know they made butter and stuff shipped to Honolulu and things like that, you know. But, when the mother [Mrs. Ackerman] was dieing in Honolulu, we went on the Humu‘ula but when we got there was too late. By then the land was all pau… [describes division of land and family matters]
HA: So when people, like from Honolulu move back and they grumble and they say, “What about this, this…” I say, “Better you don’t talk, you don’t understand,” You know because I say, you know you don’t blame them for feeling hurt because now they come home, from five hundred acres, and then you end up you don’t even have a quarter acre. You have to go live on Bishop Estate land so you can’t very well blame them for getting mad.
HA: And then you know like the ones that I was raised with before, and their fathers worked for the ranch you know from my father them way before and then you know I was just telling my brother. You know just sitting down here talking on the stonewall, we were all kind of raised together for years. And they go Honolulu work, now they retired and come back and, “You know I meant to ask you whatever happened with the land?” I said. You know my daddy always used to tell me, “This side Jimmy, this side Walter,” And he said, “You remember you was small every time on the back of the horse you and daddy used to pick ‘ulu, you know.”
KM: Where was this?
HA: Down at Hōkūkano.
KM: Hōkūkano, oh.
HA: We go down go pick ‘ulu and whatever. Uncle Sam Ho‘omanawanui used to live down there.
KM: ‘Ae makai. So down in the Kāināliu section?
HA: Yes, yes. And then we used to go you know. Uncle Sam get some small pigs for sell, you know go down there put ‘em in the bag and whatever. Then when he asked I said, “Gee, I don’t know really what when happen I was too young.” Because he said, “You know after that, I no see you, so I just was wondering…” My father, he had about maybe forty percent or so, because there’s a trail going down. Where the medical center used to go straight all the way down…
KM: Yes, yes that’s right straight down.
HA: Straight down.
HA: And everybody went down those trails for go fishing, just like over here.
HA: You know.
KM: And that was the practice right of the families that lived within these given lands, yeah. They had the access from mauka, makai.
HA: All up here too, we had going up. See this trail right here, go straight up. I come down here go fishing with tūtū Simon, in the morning, early I go up because we milk cows up mauka.
KM: ‘Ae. Above the highway or a little below?
HA: Above Nāpo‘opo‘o School you get the trail, go right over the trail come out.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: We had some cows that we milked every morning. So if I come down here then my father meet me up. When I pau fishing about five o’clock, that’s where I walk go up, catch the trail and then go mauka. But everybody did that.
KM: What’s happening to the trails now?
HA: You see what people do, and this is in a lot of places, what they doing now, they’re removing the walls.
HA: And they plant something and then later people don’t know where the trail is.
KM: Right, right, so you’re loosing all of these traditional accesses?
HA: And people take advantage of people, I gave one…trails, I gave ten feet down, ten feet so people can drive in, supposed to be only three of us. You know a thousand feet down and we made the road, big money, make road you know concrete and everything. But then they tell you one thing, and before you know it the houses start to shoot out. Boom, boom, boom.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: Then the next person start grumbling. “Wow, look at this traffic!” I said “You see, people are not up and up.” They tell you one thing they turn around they tell, “Oh, I not there anymore, I sold ‘em.” But that’s not what they told you, “I building this house ‘cause I want to retire here.” They tell you one thing and then do something else.
HA: That’s why, that’s where the problem comes from. People are not true.
KM: ‘Ae. When you were young, so you lived basically right here. You fished out here all the time?
HA: Oh, yes.
KM: Did you go out as far as 3Kahauloa, Ke‘ei, Hōnaunau like that?
HA: You see like before with the old people, or when we had hō‘ike or stuff like that. The old-timers like Uncle Richard Pakiko, we go we start from Ke‘ei… It’s a different…we used the ‘upena pu‘u you know the regular cross net?
HA: And then there was anchor old net they used and they tabu’d that later.
HA: Called ‘upena ‘eke.
HA: It was like an ‘ōpelu net you know with plenty ‘īkoi you know so the thing stay open like this.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: And one ‘ōpelu stick on the bottom like this, yeah [gesturing].
HA: And two weights. So you go with the canoe and you drop this net down right on the ku‘una, and then two canoe, you just drop your wing. And then the last…not too far. The ku‘una, they all go down, soon as you get ‘em straight the fish all go straight.
KM: Right, right.
HA: And you just drop and then on the top of this net you put one floater.
KM: ‘Ae. So just like holding the mouth open?
HA: Yes. So you go like this you huli your two canoes and come back and one guy in front he just throw stone like this [gestures throwing stones in water]. And the fish come down the two canoe come straight down, the first canoe reach there grab that and pull ‘em and this net closed. And the divers go down, pick up the ‘ōpelu stick, the two ends, and just throw ‘em, and seal this bag.
HA: But you know with the floater the ‘īkoi all that, the net stay wide open on the top.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: All the fish go down, to the bag.
KM: So they go into the bag, the ‘eke?
HA: Yes, into the ‘eke. And then you go back and you pick up your wing, and you pick ‘em up. And you see the first time Uncle Richard came back from Kaua‘i, he came with the ‘upena ‘eke. So he told me one morning, “Boy you get up early we go ‘upena ‘eke, early in the morning,” I look at him and I run home I tell, “Mama, Uncle tell, we go ‘upena ‘eke.” Then my brother went get up, he older he say, “I go.” Take Sonny, Sonny know. I used to go before when I was young, take care one canoe, the other take care of the other canoe. And then we go one time we go in the morning, and early we come home, then we start dividing, you know.
HA: Everybody get share. And the ones no more no kids, automatic going get half share.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: But everybody.
KM: That seems to be the style of the families here.
KM: And when someone went out fish like just when we fist walked out on the edge of your property was the akule fisherman.
HA: Akule, yes.
KM: So the people though before when they fish they go and what māhele i‘a?
HA: Oh yes, everything. Everything was shared. Just like when you, you know like over here they are used to fish ‘ōpelu. But when they come home you run down there help to bring the canoe up.
HA: But you come home with your ‘ōpelu.
HA: Even over here had Blue Frazier he owned this house before and he go out get ahi so every time when he come in like that you know he call, “Help,” especially when he get ahi or whatever bring the canoe up, this was his place. And then everybody did that, that’s normal.
HA: That’s why I told people in all the years that I’ve dived on the other side, form young times I knew everybody Kailua all the old people, so loveable.
HA: We come home I open the cover from the canoe, I sit down little while and the old people come they go straight to the canoe they take what they like. And they come and they kiss me and they go home. Oh that’s what’s happening…because some no more husband.
HA: And sometimes vice-a-versa, but everybody got to eat you know.
KM: That’s right.
HA: But mama always used to tell me you give, you give, plenty heart!
KM: Yes. Hā‘awi aloha?
KM: And then always comes back.
HA: Oh always, always. Then had some ladies that I knew since we were kids and they had plenty kids but their husbands couldn’t swim or something you know. They come, and we…I just call them “Hui, come down,” And they come inside and they say, “Oh brother, how much?” I said “no, no, just take half ka‘au.” “Ho brother plenty red fish.” “Here take some red fish,” they take half ka‘au. And they come and kiss me, “Hey brother mahalo,” and they go. But, as I say I’ve always done it you know what I mean. It makes you feel good.
HA: Like this lady who worked for my mother she was the same thing. She was very strong lady she had a lot of kids but she took good care of me. I used to get headache, sinus from the water, and then she come early in the morning put medicine in my nose. She come, she put ‘ōlena.
KM: ‘Ōlena, yes.
HA: You know I told people, “That ‘ōlena when take care of me for twenty years.” I told them. I go work I rub, rub my head but you know they take care. She said, “Yes, I got to take care of you, bumby I not going eat fish.”
HA: That was great, great.
KM: You were mentioning on the point on Kahauloa Point basically here, that there’s an old canoe landing right over there. This coral, the lady walking now I guess kind of.
HA: Yes, yes. There was canoes there, there were canoes right here too see right this high rock here?
HA: You see right here?
HA: That’s another awa too, right there. This awa was made, this awa when this man Blue Frazier bought this house here had a rock in the center. Had the rock blown out and then he made this you know.
KM: I see, I see. Now, your tūtū Annie?
HA: Yes, Au. She lived right here that was Desha, that’s where Uncle Steven lived.
KM: Yes, yes okay. And you said that there used to be a pond there?
HA: The pond was next, it used to be John Gaspar’s.
HA: He owned that property behind the house, he owned that and he was a school teacher way back. And also the one makai, Uncle…I forget his last name, I was only a kid at that time. Then later, Uncle Richard Pakiko had it. But then the tidal wave came and took all of these other houses.
KM: ‘Ae. But that pond over ther you had a recollection it was brackish, but good water?
HA: It’s good brackish water but it’s supposed to go further back.
KM: ‘Ae. And your recollection, you heard that it was a special bathing place?
HA: According to the old people they said “there was tabu that was for the ladies to ‘au‘au.”
KM: Ahh, uh-hmm.
HA: And that was their private bath. Just tabu and that was only for ladies. And I’m pretty sure this water went all the way back to the back of where the next property.
HA: I think, and I meant to ask my father, when we were kids, if there was a plank when we used to go down, had Uncle Alec Gaspar. He used to live makai there, Uncle Joe’s brother.
HA: And I’m pretty sure had one plank that we used to walk across.
HaA: When __________ was living there, it did have. Yes, you walk right across.
HA: So you know that’s the thinkg you know you kind of poina as the years go by you know but…[shaking his head]
KM: Did you used to walk along the coastline out to Ke‘ei too?
HA: You see everybody mostly even like cousin Lawrence and…
HA: And Lawrence, Lawrence especially everybody went this way.
KM: Along the old alanui-alahele?
HA: Yes. Went to Kahauloa then up, up along Keawaiki, Ko‘opapa and then right into Ke‘ei.
KM: Right into Ke‘ei so where uncle Louie mā’s house was before?
HA: Yes. Everybody went, where you go down the hill going down Ke‘ei at Ko‘opapa, go down there.
HA: But not one time I told her [his wife], “take me down there at Ko‘opapa, drop me off and then come home. I going catch ‘a‘ama and then you can come through.” But then it was cut off, it’s in the ocean now.
KM: So that old alahele has been changed out and cut out too?
HA: Yes. That’s the part because everybody went through. Like you know when we were kids the people used to come through here.
HA: Walk through here and where Walter Kahiwa them stay, the next lot and then over. Because had one gate you know over there. My mama used to walk, wait for her cousin, they all used to walk to church. The small church over here.
HA: So, when mama was alive everything was fine, the gates everything was there, even for the church property. The minute mama died, boom, the gates were gone! The alanui used to go in. When mama was, they wouldn’t fool around because every Sunday her and the cousins they all walk to church together.
KM: Walk to church. Was this the little church that was used?
HA: Yes because the big church because of the earthquake you know.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: Fell down so built this small church and Uncle Isaac Kapule them and everybody.
KM: ‘Ae. I was just trying to see there’s on the other map I left for you, Register Map 1445 you’ll see, it’s this one here. It has…it’s really a nice map [opening up map] ‘cause it shows, this map is from 1882. It’s really neat you know. The old Alanui Aupuni you know the main road mauka not the trail. But you see like here even, you know, Kalua’s house, Kupou lets see I was trying to think. Then over here here’s at Nāpō‘opo‘o, Sala’s house, he also had a church out here evidently. You know, Simmerson and then up here is Kāhikolu like that comes into…that’s the point so this would be, this is near somewhere where we are. Got to be.
HA: Yes, yes, right there.
KM: Very interesting. Yes, that’s the point there.
HA: Yes and right in the back, goes like this. And this is Kahauloa already.
KM: ‘Ae, Kahauloa.
HA: Kahauloa, and then Ko‘opapa.
KM: Ko‘opapa yeah. ‘Cause then you come in Hale-o-Lono and…
HA: Hale-o-Lono right.
KM: Yes, mea Pānui mā?
KM: The old heiau out here? You hear of Palemanō?
HA: Yes, yes Palemanō. We…they found some…we buried some that came up to the church.
HA: ‘Cause we used to take care of that.
HA: We buried some that they found down Maluhia and whatever.
HA: And you know they said oh they going come from Honolulu and they going bury ‘em like that. But you know they can’t just come and do that so we go up and we dig ‘em and we bury ‘em.
KM: Yes, yes. That’s important you know and when I finish up the study that we are doing for the Ke‘ei lands here just a small collection of histories. That same time when I was talking about Kekūhaupi‘o and him swimming at a place called Waipiele…
KM: In that same year 1908 they had an article about Palemanō also, Kamaiko is the name of the heiau. That they found po‘o kanaka and stuff in there.
HA: That’s what we were kind of looking when we were picking up stones for make that Henry Ōpūkaha‘ia memorial, we was just picking upstones that’s what we were trying to look for was this one here, in the back.
HA: By Willy, where Thompson has now [thinking], Nāinoa.
KM: Nāinoa yes, yes.
HA: ‘Cause there’s one other road over there.
KM: Yes. Here it says [looking at map] Limukoko Point. Did you gather limu or anything at that time?
HA: Yes, we used to go over here. But kind of, you know, this place here, you have to be very careful. We go, go pick limu, plenty limu kohu.
HA: But kind of rough water, no.
KM: Yes. And you know they say this is a very famous place, Keomo with Moku‘ōhai.
KM: The old battleground like that.
HA: Yes. A lot of people fish off there too. We used to dive all through here too.
KM: So go along?
HA: Yes. And Louie and I we dived this whole area. And I always go to shoot fish, and she
[gesturing to his wife] go make limu.
HA: You know, and like sometimes when she go catch ‘a‘ama and she come back and she can smell night time. So in day time we go, then we come back and cannot find her. We go ask people if they seen here, “We seen her early this morning she was outside here.” And we go find and we find her. And then sometimes she find ‘um but in the water. Sometimes limu stays in the water, you know cannot find ‘em. And then Louie says “no more.” She says, “No cuz, get.” And she goes and she find ‘em.
KM: Yes. You can smell the limu?
HA: She can smell ‘em. Even like Honokōhau like that she walk on the sand and she see the limu then she look around. She knows got to come from some place so she swim out to the breakers and that’s where she find ‘em in the breakers.
KM: It seems like all of you folks, Ke‘ei section, Nāpo‘opo‘o vicinity were all family, yeah?
KM: Everyone was all pili somehow you know.
HA: Yes. You know, funny about these waters. Like Ke‘ei, just like they know where you are, they have to accept who you are. Even when I first took her Kāināliu Beach I said, “You watch out this place can kaukau people.”
HA: But with her, the first time she go, but you know her she no maka‘u she just go couple of times she get kind of bust up, until it accepts you.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: You know even we go at night, or catch ‘a‘ama in the rough water, “I said you go up, you go up, the water it comes from behind you.”
HA: I said you fall in the water pau you going make you not going get no way of coming up. You know lot of people drown. I said, “Cannot come up.” They said, “No.” I said, “Cannot come up.” I know he cannot come up because the tide is up when the tide is up you go you touch the stone certain places and you go right back out.
HA: You can never come up you have to make up your mind to swim to the next point or something because you cannot come up.
KM: Yes. Wow! …But interesting you know, to see some of the old family names.
HA: Yes all family. You know my cousin Lawrence he lived with the grandfather, old man Pānui. But you know he had one cousin Rebecca, Lawrence’s sister but you know he had thirteen black dogs. So he set the ‘upena by himself then he whistle, and all these thirteen black dogs hit the water and that’s their kāpeku.
KM: For real! Draw up the fish?
HA: Chase the fish.
KM: Wow! Too much yeah!
HA: Thirteen black dogs.
HA: You never see one mongoose, they pick ‘em up. I remember he was working for Maluhia and he found these thirteen little black dogs. And was good for the girls way back then, because Lawrence has unreal eyes to see, terrific fisherman, and his feel like that in the breakers, pa‘a you know.
HA: And we used to go that’s what I tell, “You see this finger all crooked,” I throw net with this man and you know that’s how, that’s how good he was. So good, he was.
HA: But the girls that came at those times you know, and wait for he pau work with the throw net and they used to carry bag for him and they learned a lot. You know like how to look the fish, the angle you know. We’ve gone to [thinking] Ka‘alu‘alu.
KM: ‘Ae. Ka‘alu‘alu, Ka‘ū?
HA: Yes, Ka‘ū. “Cousin us go look squid,” so we go look he‘e. One old man was there see. “Ah, you fella don’t know.” He gets mad, he talks very fluent Hawaiian. So he tell the old man, “If I no can see, you no can see.”
KM: Ahh. [chuckles]
HA: The old man when try, no can. Lawrence was mad, but Lawrence if he tell you something you better believe it.
HA: He’s very good at it, and you know he had a good teacher you know the old people because they were raised with the grandfather, you know.
KM: Yes, that’s right. And that old man Louie Pānui, the old man you know, was so knowledgeable about the history of the land and tūtū Kalokuokamaile you know.
KM: I see some of the old accounts, ‘cause they wrote in the newspapers all the time. Wonderful stories.
HA: Yes. Because you know they were the deacons of the church, I remember when we were kids when were kolohe, everything is in Hawaiian you know everybody used to gather there early in the morning.
HA: So when you make kolohe or something you know, the “Kona Echoes,” the ears all awake, and then all in Hawaiian and we sitting dowon. And a lot of us don’t understand too much, so we’re just sitting there like fools [chuckling].
HA: But before everybody talk Hawaiian. My father, people used to say…my father he don’t like people who come to the house because our house we always had party, but he don’t like nothing to go out. When he come home he see someone like that, he don’t trust, from there on he’ll only talk Hawaiian to my mother and the both of them. And like this lady Mrs. Hoapili.
KM: ‘Ae, Alice?
HA: Alice Hoapili. She used to grumble because she comes from Maui.
HA: And she wanted she said, “I just love to go your house.” Only trouble you know that father he always talking Hawaiian and she cannot understand.
HA: Alice Hoapili her and mama were very close.
KM: Oh, yes.
HA: She started to teach right before my mother.
KM: ‘Ae, oh I see.
HA: I think she started 1917, and then mama I think, started 1919, at where the library is now.
KM: ‘Ae. The old school?
HA: The old school. And then they taught up here at Nāpo‘opo‘o School.
HA: … But oh the sad you know, all the fishing grounds before the old people, I go with tūtū Simon we go out hook ‘ū‘ū at night.
HA: Mark all your lines.
HA: And I don’t know how they really know the bottom. They tell you, you hold four fathoms, you hold five fathoms everything was stone before.
HA: You jerk you hemo, and we go only until eleven o’clock, get enough fish for everybody, then you come home.
HA: If the ‘ūpalu bite, one not too bad, two bite, he go over three that old man get hot then he pound ‘em on the canoe until the thing fly off because he’d rather catch ‘ū‘ū, ‘āweoweo.
HA: There’s so many things. Like tūtū Simon, he was on the Humuula for so many years, and when he came home, when he used to come Kailua then he used to call mama you know for send one car down pick him up. But then I used to fish with him, very good, very good. All his spots, and sometimes these old people they argue.
HA: Like old man George Moku like that, about sports. He tell me, “Boy go home to tūtū Annie, cut bait bring outside here.” Then the two of them go. He tell me, “You wait for tūtū man over here.” They go out Ka‘awaloa, go out catch fish. Because sometime he tell they stay right under your nose. You know like ‘ōpelu he said I can go right over there by the monument, and one pull I can come back, five ka‘au or something. He get hot, he tell ‘um they’re under their nose.
HA: That’s what we learned. You know, everybody before what you knew, you knew and you wouldn’t spread it around.
KM: ‘Ae. They took care of their ko‘a yeah and kept it kind a…
HA: Yes, really. I tell him and that’s why…you know me and Lionel used to stay with tūtū, but if Lionel going outside, go look he‘e or he going by himself he ain’t going take me you know.
HA: That’s true you know. But you see everybody kept that you know. Like cousin Anini, uncle Joe’s oldest son.
HA: He used to go out sometime, but then he take some of the young kids for go hold canoe. But what the younger ones were doing they were land marking ‘em.
HA: You know and that’s why you got to be very careful.
KM: So as a fisherman you know you really was in your best interest that you protect your ko‘a?
KM: You know because that’s where you were ma‘a to go?
HA: You see the thing is the people don’t clean their holes like the lobster.
HA: Like Ke‘ei before, right inside the breakers, had these rocks before. And it’s hard to go and Lawrence…Louie’s younger sister Rebecca, she was Mrs. Andrade, and I go down there and I go call her that time she was single, young. And come from ma uka I said I going outside pick up lobster. The boys from ma uka said, “I go, I go hold bag for you.” I tell, “No, I going take my cousin with me.”
KM: Uh-hmm, yes.
HA: I say, “You folks no can handle the breakers, you folks not used to the breakers.” I said, “No, I take my cousin with me,” so the both of us. “But she one girl.” I said, “She better than all you folks.”
HA: But you know we go out and we only go for kaukau, and we just go out and we make. Just like with the fishing we only go for make. And even with the akule before same thing. Everything was like the same you know.
HA: And now, nowadays you know everybody’s head is like one cash register you know.
KM: Yes, yes. And you know and see that’s the thing I suppose there’s only so much you know…before when you went out you knew you were going to get fish right. Now, what, different?
HA: It’s different. It’s so different people, people’s thinking is different.
KM: Yes. I like your explanation, their heads like one cash register you know, “thinking of the kenikeni.”
HA: Yes. You know like when we used to stay on the lighthouse area before we go and sometime I work kind of late so I’m the last canoe come over at night.
KM: From here?
HA: No, no from Kailua.
HA: You know but we go we stay right by the lighthouse we only, you know before used to take us so long to get there, the motors were small.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: Took you long to get there. And then you were choosy because we never had all this ice to take care of the fish.
KM: Right, right.
HA: So you kaula‘i, if you going stay there for few days like when we stayed. When we used to go on the other side of Minoli‘i you know.
KM: ‘Ae. Kapu‘a section?
HA: Kapu‘a section you know, and we go outside…what’s the name of that place now [thinking] oh boy… Anyway, you know if you going stay couple of days, you got to come back and cut and dry. Cut and dry. And when you ready for come home, you get little bit fish.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: But you only took what you wanted.
KM: When you were drying, where did you get your salt from out there and you made?
HA: We did. We always took you know like ginger. But you can pick up salt you know, on the Pāhoehoe.
KM: Yes. ‘Cause you mentioned Kalaemanō like out Ka‘ūpūlehu?
HA: Yes, yes. Kalaemanō, all those areas all had places where you can ‘au‘au.
HA: Always get brackish water. All along that whole coast same like this side, same thing.
HA: Every place you know. And you know we tried not to leave ‘em kāpulu. You know, you got to mālama these places, you no can kāpulu.
HA: And we stayed all those places from one end to the other end. But those days I told ‘em you know, I tell people, even our section below Kāināliu Beach, I tell people you can just stand up and shoot fish.
HA: You know, people chase the fish, but we were taught to just let the fish come to you.
KM: Come to you… So you could in those days…?
KM: You no need go after ‘em?
HA: No you don’t. And then you only shot what you wanted. You know like my nephews before, when they go with me I tell ‘em, “the main thing about diving is shooting being accurate it’s not the depth.” Because the depth will always come natural eh?
HA: You know as you get feeling better, you get deeper and deeper and you don’t damage yourself and then you’d be accurate. I say you only look at the head then you only going shoot the head but you look at the whole body then you might shoot ‘em on the body but you only look at his head. You know what I mean…
HA: And it’s simple things like that just to kind of tell ‘em. Sometime they say, “Why you tell ‘em that?” I say, “You know why, because when you say something it stays in the back of their head.”
KM: That’s right.
HA: You know, I talk to a lot of people about conservation, they talking about something, “Oh, we got to correct this problem over here.” Then I just tell ‘em, “If I was to solve that problem, I would go to the sources of supply, I don’t wait until it comes to millions, I’d break it down into stages.” I said, “But I don’t know how you folks do it.” They say, “Why you talk like that to them?” I said, “You know why because now they going home and think about it.”
KM: That’s right, plant seeds yeah?
HA: Yes. It’s simple things, you know like the kids, like we always had, young boys came when I would kālua pigs. We killed and everything the same day. We had about half a dozen to kālua, we’d kill the six pigs and kālua. And we kālua a lot of pigs. Sometime I start off with what happen maybe supposed to be only four maybe we end up with nine.
HA: There’s no more room I put ‘em on the top you know my father he get mad he go home and he’s grumbling… But where does the heat go? Heat rises. And I teach them how to build imu and I always tell them, “Whatever you do, it’s you the one doing it. So you have to have confidence in yourself you know.” Whatever you do and I said, “This is not one stove where you can burn the fire out.”
KM: That’s right.
HA: And if the fire is low you cannot turn ‘em up. So you make the fire hot and from there you can correct it, you take care of your heat. That’s the only thing you have to know. “But how long you going burn ‘em?” That’s how tight you make ‘em…and everything is common sense…You have to have confidence in yourself. So the ones I taught they asked me about anything I say whatever I know, they know. Whatever we went, we shoot fish with the kids I said, “You clean all your fish, if not you no come.”
HA: You know no take ‘em home for mama. We go hunt we do the same thing. And all the kids that came and stayed with us and you know things like that, we taught is not to abuse.
HA: You know we caught one pig I said, “Now we go home.” We used to come home early in the morning, we come home one pig we skin ‘em, hang ‘em up. A couple of young boys with us. We had breakfast then we go down and we shoot some fish. Like get one now he’s older than the rest and he said, “You know the first job I get?” Boy, you know your job?” “Yes.” “Make the fire.” First, before we jump in the water.
KM: ‘Ae. ‘Cause you knew you were coming home [chuckling].
HA: Yes, because you not going stay in the water. You not there to shoot the whole ocean you know what I mean.
HA: You figure, when the fire is down we come out. When you fish, that’s enough.
HA: Like Pila.
HA: Yes. That man for his age he was so accurate and he tell me, “You come pick me up early tomorrow morning. Only us two now, only two.” “Okay.” He tell me the kids from Honolulu called. They all going to one gathering, baseball game or something. They need fish, “oh, okay.” So we go down Kawanui, and that’s his ground, Hawanui.
HA: We go light throw a couple of big kiawe we walk. We jump in the water by Kawanui and go across, come across the cliffs, by the time we come back to the fireplace, the line full, his one full we on our own we come back throw a few fish on the fire, eat. Put ‘em in the cooler, tie ‘em down everything. We come up with the jeep, hit ma uka, throw ‘em in my car, go straight down the airport.
HA: His son-in-law work down the airport.
HA: Straight in Honolulu.
HA: That’s the good days. Because this man he only shooting the fish when fat. Like when we used to go to the lighthouse a lot, lot of boys never know that ground very well. We shoot one section from here to the fence, “Oh, ‘nough, ‘nough, out of the water in the boat, in the boat.” They say, “Plenty fish over here.” “No, no if you going shoot fish, put ‘em in a different cooler.”
HA: Why? ‘Cause over here I got to fish. You got to know the area.
HA: I remember Pila, we used to go Kalaemanō go shoot fish and one time we were going over Kalaemanō, and on the way over he tell me, “Boy, I hear story the kole, big kole.” I said, “Yes, somebody tell you that kind story.” He tell me, “Yes.” He said, “You the guy know ‘em.” I said, “Who went tell you that funny story?”
HA: He tell me, Alfred Delpino. We used to dive together years ago. I said, “Yes, he told you that kind story?” He tell me, “Yes, you ask him.” So on the way over I tell him, “You make all your things ready.” So going over I told Ako, go inside here, I said, “Right here, right here.” They all said, “We going with pops.” I said, “No, you folks all stay on the boat, no, no, no, no.” We go down the other side Ka‘ūpūlehu poke fish. I said, “Don’t worry about it he’ll be fine back there.” When he came back, we see the smile, the people see the kole big.
HA: I said because this is the only section we have you know on that coast, all they way up. The kole maka onaona.
KM: Maka onaona, ‘ae.
HA: Big like that. Because only Kohala and other places get the big kind kole like that. But over here no more only certain sections you know you see the kole big. Like for the pali before when we pick we only dive along the pali [pointing to the Kealakekua section].
HA: The kole in the pali is small but ‘ono, soft. For ‘ai maka like that, that’s the best.
KM: Yes, oh.
HA: And even the pāku‘iku‘i like that you go, plenty fish, but the people just ‘ānunu.
KM: ‘Ae. Now that’s the pilikia you know if you keep taking too much, too much you know, and you don’t let it ho‘omaha too…
HA: …Just like out here, plenty before, we take, then now, the people don’t go day time they go at night now so what they cannot get they’ll get it at night. It’s going to wipe out everything. Even like you look Kohala now plenty people, plenty fish Kohala. But now you see the fish is in the market, like pāku‘iku‘i in the market and no spear mark, got to be with net.
HA: But if you ‘upena ku‘u, you cross. You have to catch the pāku‘iku‘i the pāku‘iku‘i going wait until the other fish hit. The minute he shine the pāku‘iku‘i going turn around come back.
HA: Unless he hit and the net goes down the pāku‘iku‘i going over.
HA: But the pāku‘iku‘i not one lōlō fish. So how they going catch ‘em. They got to go at night because the pāku‘iku‘i don’t sleep in shallow water. I tell the people, “When you dive night time you see pāku‘iku‘i?” I bet you no see pāku‘iku‘i, because the pāku‘iku‘i sleep outside deep so how they catch ‘em they got to go out there and catch ‘em with the net. You see these little things that happen.
KM: Yes. Well it’s like the technology has made it so easy you don’t need to have any smarts too, yeah?
HA: You know before when you dive, free dive you’re accurate because you’re not going to go down forty feet and miss your shot.
HA: So, I tell them, “You got to know what you’re going to shoot before you leave the surface and be accurate.” What’s the sense of going down forty feet if you going miss?
HA: But I don’t know everything changes they making it too easy they make all this easier things, make the fins bigger.
KM: Yes. Out swim the fish [chuckling]
HA: And then they have these divers, and they’re scouting the grounds at the same time. And the tropical fish is the worse one the State is so far in the back, that the tropical fish people been taking fish for the past twenty years. They went wipe out this whole area. Kāināliu beach used to have so much fish. I used to tell people, people would tell me, “Oh brother I like pāku‘iku‘i.” You don’t have to dive you can just stand right on the rock like that and just shoot ‘em like that. And I’m telling you, you go down there now, you only see humuhumu. “Oh but it’s coming back.” I said, “If you had a thousand fish over here and you took away nine hundred and then all of a sudden you let ‘em rest and now went back, but now get two hundred inside.” “But the fish is coming back.” I said, “Yes but how about the other eight hundred you took before that?”
HA: Yes, but you see what is happening now with boundary lines when the equipment goes in, they’re scattering the wall.
KM: ‘Ae, ‘oki and cut ‘em up.
HA: You see that’s why because now they going say, “What wall, I didn’t see no wall, I never see no fence.”
HA: Because it’s gone. I seen things over here people they come and they ask me, and I tell ‘em how big it is you know around here because I kind of used to this. So they ask me, “What happened?” Well, the other side when claim ‘em. I said because the surveyor didn’t find the original pin, so he started making his own stations and shooting from there.
KM: That’s right.
HA: So now you have all these pins. So they ask me, “Do you know my boundary?” Oh sure I take ‘em to their boundary, so I tell ‘em “Okay when I go home I tie one ribbon up there.” I say all these lots supposed to be because they were all one lot, and later they went get ‘em back. So they ask me well how many do I have, because you short quarter acre, the balance is over here.
KM: That’s right.
HA: And there’s so many like that you know that went wrong.
KM: You know like you said the old walls and where the old pā hale like that for the lots. And you ‘oki those, everything gets changed then and then they put a wall where shouldn’t be like across your old trail or something.
HA: There’s so many that’s happening you know. Like below Honalo you know. And I went down after so many years one time going back down, we had these problem these boys took off so they asked me for go look for ‘em. So I went down and I looked for ‘um in lot of places that people don’t go no more you know.
HA: All the old kuleanas. And I went down there and I was sad to say this when I came up I talked to one of the land owners. I said, you know when these people come back from Honolulu, the old people die. How they going to get in, they locked out, they locked out. Because these people took the trails, they took all the trails. And then the ones like down Keauhou, coming into Kawanui from the Keauhou side.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: You see had the old trail, yeah?
HA: So they went talk to the landowners inside, if they can move the trail to the ma uka.
KM: That’s right.
HA: And that was the biggest mistake. Well now they put one lock on ‘em. I said, “Yes because it’s no longer the trail.” Now the trail is no longer there. This is their property if they want to put a lock on they going put a lock and you can’t get in. Because you folks when agree to give up the trail and that’s where the pilikia came from.
HA: So they said well, they never know that. I said, “That’s what happens you know.” Because these things like that and I said, “They so smooth talking, they say ‘no worry, no worry, no worry…’” Yes, no worry, yeah right.
HA: You know now, nalowale.
KM: Nalowale. You folks had no problem in your youth, walking?
HA: No, no.
KM: …along Ke‘ei out as far as Hōnaunau like that?
HA: No problem. Because people come through here, walk like that, “Hui, good morning aunty, good morning aunty.” And you know like us even until today, I work I come over, light company come here eat lunch whoever coming. The County come over here eat lunch, you know. Everybody until today they still come. I never stopped anybody and my nephew like come over from Honolulu I said, “Don’t you kick anybody out of there when you folks are here you know what I mean, because they are welcome to come here and eat lunch.”
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: They no kāpulu, it’s always been open just tell ‘em to come.
KM: It’s so nice, as long as they mālama.
HA: They mālama. I said “From grandma’s time, everybody was the same way. So don’t change nothing.”
HA: …You know, I come a little hūhū at times but you just got to kind of… Because to me when people go to make the changes it only gets worse. But what’s happening now what the County is okaying, and what the State is okaying a lot of times, along our shorelines that’s terrible, you know.
KM: Yes. So to you it’s really important that the shoreline areas be taken care of?
HA: You know now, already people having hard time. The State don’t…where are all these people going later? Now look Manini‘ōwali and all that area it’s all gone already now where are they going?
HA: You know they went get rid of ‘um fast, because they know people are going to grumble later. So now they get rid of it fast before these things happen. Now, how about their kids, their grandkids, where they going? Where can they go camping? Like this one girl I was just talking to, “Ho, you know uncle lucky we have boat, we have to go by boat and go stay down Kūki‘o. Uncle we no can go down by the car, lucky we have one boat so we go by ocean.” You know like Manini‘ōwali, had one family from way back. Every summer they used to stay there, you know. We never used to bother them we always used to see them and they always kept it nice and clean, and then we used to just past them when we stay Kūki‘o. You see everybody, the commercial fisherman before, the ones on canoe, before used to stay at Kūki‘o, the old house used to be there.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: And then they fish at night they sleep, and then they go Kona crab or something. Practically everybody did that, you know all the Japanese and whoever.
HA: But now what, what can you do now? You know lot of the old Japanese people I talk to they knew everybody who lived there.
HA: We used to go in from Mahai‘ula, my cousin Wilama Weeks, he used to go inside there and fix the engines like that, the old man Polto used to stay there with… [thinking]
HA: Oh, you know eh?
HA: Because you know one time I went over there and you know and I came home and I told mama, “Oh, we stayed Makalawena…at the house.” She said, “What house, there’s no more house there?” I said, “No,” anyway we started to argue. She said, “No, how that house look like?” I just told her, she said, “No, that’s the schoolhouse.” That’s the only building the rest is burned. She told me the next time you go back you go by the hardwood tree she said that’s where everybody’s buried.
KM: Yes, that’s right.
HA: Yes, because see her and daddy they were pretty good friends with Francis Brown. You know old man Francis Brown?
KM: I see, yes.
HA: He used to come inside anchor every time come up here drink. Him and his boys he had the two fastest speed boats, before.
KM: Yes, yes that’s right.
HA: And then he and Wilama was good friends too. I used to go with Wilama before we used to go into Mahai‘ula before we used to fix the windmill.
HA: And he always used to go back for clean the graves in the back. What was the name [thinking] the people who owned Mahai‘ula?
KM: John Ka‘elemakule.
HA: John. We used to go behind there go clean the graves.
KM: Behind? The back of Pāhoehoe on the rocks?
HA: Yes, yes.
KM: The old cave?
HA: Yes. We used to go in the back there.
KM: Yes, oh.
HA: Then Wilama, he said, “Oh, they sold this place, 1932.”
HA: Wilama used to go all over, there was another Japanese man used to go with us [thinking] and he used to be the cook and he knew everything. I told him, “Gee, how old you?” He told me, “When I was a young boy I was the cook on the boat.” Japan ship, he came to Hawai‘i was so beautiful he said he went…
HA: Skip, jump ship.
HA: And he said he used to go around there he knew everybody who lived there way back. Way back in the early ‘20s and then all the way over. He picked up so much knowledge from these old people you know.
KM: Yes. It’s so important though you know to talk story, and hear these little recollections. You know it’s really neat you know this whole idea. I get this real sense of family, community you know…Ke‘ei the families between here and what you know. Everyone just seems you folks worked together and it was interesting you said ‘ōpelu even for the big nets that they hui together buy the nets like that.
HA: Always even, with the akule everybody before…
HA: The Leslies like that, they never had enough money to buy all these nets so they went to all the merchants.
KM: I see.
HA: They all threw in their money and my father and everybody else threw in their money. And so everybody was entitled and they had old man Ushimura, he used to be a judge before, he was a lawyer. He was kind of the honcho who took care of the payments and the sales and stuff.
KM: Oh. Japanese man?
KM: Oh. Ushi…?
KM: Ushimura, oh.
HA: And he lived where the dentist, Nakamaro’s, that house.
HA: He and my father was good friends you know that man. And all the good kama‘āina Japanese from ma uka here.
HA: Because lot of them they worked for the mill. And the people from Kailua used to live here because, American Factors used to be here.
KM: That’s right back and forth that’s right Hackfeld, American Factors.
HA: Because lot of them they used to tell me, “You know we all family.” They said, “We all used to live Nāpo‘opo‘o.” They used to come in here for go dive for he‘e like that.
HA: You know, down here.
KM: Was good he‘e grounds out here?
HA: We don’t have the kind of he‘e grounds all in the pu‘u. You got to come mālama, no can make kāpulu inside.
KM: Yes [chuckling]
HA: That’s going to happen with all the lobster and stuff.
HA: They said you don’t clean, I tell people, “When you hemo, you clean.” Because that’s when the eel go back in.
HA: That’s when he go in and he stay in. And I tell you know the problem before people if you go and the lobster stay inside you leave ‘em alone.
HA: Because now you can’t get ‘em out you only going kill ‘em and you going and then the eel going in.
HA: So you wait until it comes out or something.
HA: We used to go early in the morning before the sun come up we go down the breaker and the lobster still outside, walking.
HA: So you only go you catch maybe one, two then pau.
HA: That’s enough.
KM: Was there someone, when you were young to teenage years like that was there still someone out here who was sort of looked to as sort of the lawai‘a nui, the main fisherman who when the ‘ōpelu were going or akule kū you know?
HA: The Leslies with the akule, like with the nets. Different ones like… [thinking] Uncle Pakiko you know, different ones.
HA: Pakiko lived down here, and tūtū Simon… [thinking] Kalua.
HA: You see all those Kaluas, even if you know the Kalua girls some of them back here from Honolulu. They were all from here, even the Kalimas, the big Kalimas Jessie, Honey them, they all from here. They were close with my mother.
HA: And before they come they serenade, and when they pau, they come park their bus in our yard. They’d stay down for a week or so…
KM: Did you have a favorite song for this area?
HA: No. There was a lot of entertainers down here, good entertainers…
KM: Nice though. Sounds like a wonderful community, such a beautiful place.
HA: When you born here, and they come up to the church, and they looking at the graves. “Hui, looking for tūtū’s grave?” They looked at me like that, ‘cause they don’t know who I am.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: I never seen these girls in my life too. They said, “How you know I’m looking for tūtū’s grave?” I see you walking around they said, “Do you know who my tūtū is?” I say, “Oh, yeah.” “How you know?” I say, “I know you looking for tūtū, she’s up there by the corner by the wall.” “Oh thank you.” And I said, “It’s only easy to tell, only easy to tell.” … I was telling somebody last night he and I used to drink with this guy Pila Keli‘i very good friends he and I used to be cowboys together and when he first came from Japan he worked for Paris. And then you know everything was free then. Milk was free, kill their own meat, the pigs so much pigs you live on all the wild pork. And he always talk about Uncle Sam. So they asked me, “Who is Uncle Sam?” “Uncle Sam Ho‘omanawanui.” “That’s his uncle?” “Oh yeah. If you tell ‘em otherwise you got to get up every morning six o’clock in the morning to fight ‘em.”
HA: That’s how this man is. He came, he worked for the ranch only fifteen years old. Uncle Sam taught him everything he knew. And then by then he went go CC Camp, then we came home. We raised cattle together. Uncle Sam was a very big man, very good cowboy, the old-timers they were very good. Like Joe Gang, they all the same bunch, you see. They all worked for Willie Roy. Like John Alika he worked for Willie Roy. Sam worked for Willie Roy and they were the best they had. Willie Roy used to raise pigs above [thinking] Ki‘ilae, yeah Ki‘ilae.
KM: Ki‘ilae, Kauleolī they had…
HA: …the pig pens
KM: That’s right, yes.
HA: Anyway that’s when Joe Gang was. They came under probation (from Maui) and they all came here. He came when he was fourteen years old, according to Alika. He said “I know all of them.” And then when their time was up they went back, but he stayed.
KM: He stayed, Joe Gang?
HA: Yes. That’s why when I go ma uka, when I was supposed to come home, going down the road, he tell me, “No boy you stay up.” “I got to go home work.” He just tell somebody when he reach down the road, the boy going stay up. I used to go up there every vacation before for chase wild cattle, go rope ‘āhius before.
KM: So up, you said you went up, you even built…?
HA: Yes, Komokawai, one time we went up, we hauled all the things from over here, above the shopping center, Sherwood Greenwell’s.
HA: We went haul ‘um up to Kahauloa, right above the small Kahauloa, right across, and we took ‘um to Hāpu‘u. Hāpu‘u is directly across that fence line. We took ‘um until there, and then later we took ‘um from there up to Komokawai. So that’s the structure, building, not the Quonset hut, that came up afterwards. It was all on the mules.
KM: Amazing! Some work you folks have gone through you know.
HA: I was young you know and go up. They like young people to go up because they saddle the mules, and every mule you got to watch out. They all shake hands and they kick you… [smiling] It’s been a lot of things, like working with wild cattle, it’s a lost thing now you know. Even like Miki Kato he always talk about it…you know Miki Kato?
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: Miki, because he started off from McCandless.
HA: Talking about the old-timers you know, Carl Hose, they were all good workers way back. From the old man Hose time and everything.
KM: Yes, yes. Henry?
HA: Henry Hose.
KM: Henry Hose.
HA: That’s one thing with the old people, there’s so much aloha. Even you know Pu‘uanahulu when I used to work outside there from 1955. When Sonny boy them was still going to Kam School and Ha‘o them.
HA: I was working on the road, we were bringing in the lines we were digging the holes first.
KM: You were putting in the road?
HA: No the lines.
KM: Was this the one for?
HA: The main power lines. I worked for Kona Light from way back, in late ’52 then later we transferred and we brought in the lines. You know those days before everything you dig the holes, you set the poles you put the wire. That’s where I got to know all of those people up there, and such beautiful people you know.
HA: That’s why I said you know all your life, you met so many beautiful people, true people you know.
HA: That’s why even her [indicating his wife], one time she was going to Hilo with my little boy, right by Pu‘uanahulu flat tire. Everybody used to saddle up over there you know. The Alapai’s, the Keākealani’s, they came, they know my car. “Hui, hello,” they start talking to her. They asked her, “Who are you?” Right there they fix all the tire everything.
KM: [chuckles] Nice, nui ke aloha!
HA: Oh yes, oh yes.
KM: Everyone was just they tied together family and good friends.
HA: That’s why I said, never mind, if only salt and poi, they invite you in. I said over here, used to have one old couple, they lived right by the gray house, this old, old house. They were good pig hunters, and they invite you in, even if they only had that.
You know what I kind of minamina was…like us we went up early. We got to get up 3:30 in the morning, we go work. So never had time for stay down. And my cousins, I wanted to because had this old man Kuohu who lived over here he used to go catch pā‘o‘o.
HA: By himself, and he go out on the canoe. Big kind pā‘o‘o! But he used the pāo‘o for bait. The pāo‘o, the skin hard to come off, and ti leaf. It’s a kind of lost art. I wanted my cousins for go for learn because for me I no can learn because for me I no can because every morning I go work early. But you know lot of them rather sleep then go. Kind of minamina all of those things.
KM: Who was this old man?
HA: Kuohu…[thinking] what was his first name? See a lot of these old people, I went bury them. But those days we was working, but like I said, my mother knew a lot. But you know, in those times we didn’t think.
KM: I know, aloha. Didn’t think, yeah.
HA: We never think. But I used to tell the other ones if you want to know go ask mama she know. My mother she was kind of good at those things. She had a stroke like that but lot of things kind of before she was kind of forgetful, then came back.
KM: That’s the really different thing about your mama them’s generation and before, their memory, their ability to recall family history you know. It is…
HA: Yes, the years, the dates, was mean.
HA: You know Thompson, the old man the grandfather from Maui. I always known grandpa, he used to come over, we lived close.
KM: The old man, Willie?
HA: No, no. Willie’s father. Uncle Willie’s father, and kind of look like Uncle Willie, tall, and good looking man, from Maui. [chuckling] All these buggas, they were cattle rustlers on Haleakalā…
KM: Now your sister married Willie’s?
HA: Son. He was a good man. Uncle Willie was a good man. He made a lot of good cowboys, very good cowboys. He made them good really good.
KM: Did you used to drive pipi down, from ma uka down to ma kai Ki‘ilae like that in the old pens they had down there?
HA: We, mostly they alaka‘i those calves down when we first went go up then later we hauled ‘em down with the trucks.
HA: But like Joe Gang he the only man can lead plenty bulls down. But bulls after a little while they chase your horse all the way in. But he used, like two mules. He run ‘em from the first pen, down so far, then they kind of slow down. He tie ‘em up the thing is how you going make your rope so you can open ‘em as they go. Then later he bring down two or three, but nobody else can do that. Then he go back up and he change his mule, but he had practically all mules he only had few horses.
HA: But you see once people know, and I think common sense, if you want a good mule you breed ‘em with your best mare. And that way you always going get one good mule.
KM: That’s right.
HA: He had some good mules, I rode. I rode one he had was his choice, she was really good. They’re like horses they can run like horses, they can turn. He had one was his pet he named Pancake. She was good because he raised her. He call, she come to the door and she wait for her breakfast, because he gave her pancake and milk. But he named her Pancake because he raised her you know. She was a good mule too.
KM: Hard that kind of ranching, not like out in Parker Ranch kind, with the ‘āhiu and everything?
HA: No but you know they make good cowboys up here you know. Good cowboys. They ate well, work hard and you know something when you pau hana you hungry you eat. Ho they just cut you know the hipa like that, your eye bigger, and then you eat. You know our house you better eat everything or you going to get a whack you know.
HA: You know the old people they always make you feel good. “Boy, the ‘īlio got to eat too, you know.” Because they make you feel good you know. So nice those old people.
KM: Hmm. Uncle can I ask you a question?
HA: Yes, sure.
KM: You know the pali trail here [pointing to the Kealakekua pali section]?
KM: Did you ever walk that trail?
HA: Yes, yes.
KM: All the way up top?
HA: Not to the top. I used to go up there go catch pig a lot.
KM: Ahh. Along the old trail?
KM: That’s what we can see right, behind?
HA: Yes, yes. According to Uncle Joe he used to tell everybody used to come down through there.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: I go up come down and come down to the mill where the ‘ōpae pond you were talking about.
KM: ‘Ae, ‘ae.
HA: Get trails go up like that too.
KM: That’s right.
HA: And go up and catch that other trail go over.
KM: Yes. Kīloa and over.
HA: Yes. Only now if you kind of watch sometime on those trails I don’t know now because, I remember one time the water went kind of wash out one time. One night I went fall down inside.
KM: Oh. It’s so amazing ‘cause you know and see that’s the thing sad…this is the old Alanui Aupuni the trail cut down [pointing out location on map].
KM: And the trail you were talking about from Keauhou, but they went move ‘em right, on the Bishop Estate section?
KM: Lekeleke like that.
KM: Pushed it in.
KM: You know. So the old trail wipe out.
HA: And now it’s theirs.
HA: It’s supposed to be the trail moved over and join in, but now they lock ‘em and they say, “Oh, this is our property this no longer exists,” you know.
KM: This trail is some history though.
HA: Yes. And you know a lot of things… You see why when I was small. I lead home the horses with the cattle. We leave our house Kāināliu and we come gallop across. We come from Kāināliu and we come, gallop across and we come right above where the service station is up here…
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: Get the Cordeiro’s up there, meet up with them we come all the way down the road and we hit down here by the old Nāpo‘opo‘o School.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: We meet the old man Gaspar them, Vinhasa them, and then we all gallop, come down through the trail come down through there.
KM: ‘Ae, Palipoko.
HA: And we come here. Then we ship cattle.
KM: Out of here?
HA: Yes. Out of the bay used to be all white sand down there.
KM: Oh wow, yes. Where all rocks now.
HA: There, get the big holding pen. The big holding pen face the small holding pen. So you know where the heiau is?
HA: Right there on the north side of the heiau.
KM: Yes, Hikiau.
HA: Had one pen.
KM: That’s where they hold the pipi for ship.
HA: The big pen up here you see when you come down right below the mill.
HA: You see nice dirt.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: They used to lock all the cattle up here.
HA: And then there’s a big holding pen a big wall, high wall behind here. Right above… [thinking] oh my, Kahauloa.
HA: And then they bring all the cattle on to the big pen, the cattle kind of wild. And then this one here feed the small pen and then shipping horses, shipping out.
HA: Because used to be all white sand.
HA: The sand used to be so white and so shiny and the water used to be so clear that you can’t leave the horse there you know because they get seasick and they would fall.
HA: But sometime when it’s rough that’s where the problem is you know, because the rider sometime go off, [chuckling] and lot of these guys cannot swim so they hang on to the horses tail.
KM: ‘Auwē [chuckling]!
HA: The horse will swim ‘um out. And the guys on the barge, they were very good. Then, when they pau, they all get drunk so I lead the horses.
KM: You were still shipping to World War II time?
KM: After World War II no more or pau?
HA: No, no pau. But they use small kids, so I just ride the horses home, climb up on the side, you ride. You know like the old man [thinking] Cordeiro’s horses and old man Gaspar’s horse he ride one over here and then just switch. That’s the only time he get for change his horses…
HA: ...Then we go up, I go up to the old man Cordeiro, leave so many horses off over there
and then the rest I take to Kāināliu. Then from Keauhou you know the bay. We come along the Beach Road.
KM: Yes, yes. And then come up Kawanui or?
HA: I come up to Kāināliu. I come out through there, ‘cause Uncle Sam stayed at Kāināliu.
KM: That’s right, ma kai?
KM: And so go up.
HA: I come until there, me and him, and from there I come up.
KM: Who was the other old man... [Thinking] Ka‘ilikini?
HA: Yes, yes.
HA: Yes, Ka‘ilikini.
KM: Oh, I guess down Honalo side like that.
HA: He’s a character too that old man.
KM: Yes, oh.
HA: Old man Keawe.
KM: Keawe Ka‘ilikini.
HA: Yes. He used to come over here sometime my father hear the horse he said “Turn off all the lights, turn off all the lights...” [Chuckling] And the old man Naluahine, he used to come up to the shop. They all come talk story... And Mrs. Roy, when they were building houses along the Beach Road [Ali‘i Drive], she would call the old man to bless the houses. Aunty Josephine would say, “You better send Howard to go get that old man.” He was such a good cowboy...
All those old guys, they were a lot of fun... You know one thing I’m fortunate, the old people, they had something you know, fear or what. I watched this old man Henriques, he was a very nice person. At the shop, they used to bring all of those big laho ‘oles that they trap, and this man come up, he un-tie ‘em, and I never seen one pig turn on him. I said, “You know this man not one animal turn on this man,” I think it’s because when these pigs are all babies, they see this man on a horse, and walking around, from the time they are babies. Later he castrate ‘um all, but they all know this man. They smell him, they know who he is... Sometimes people ask me certain things like that about the animals. ‘āhiu, how can you get close to ‘em? I tell ‘um, “Your shirt, when you pau hana, soak ‘um in the water trough. Then they all come drink water, and they smell and come ma‘a with you. Simple things, so they know who you are.
KM: Yes, wow! Thank you, see it’s nice to talk story. Mahalo! [Recorder off, then back on]
HA: ...Because you know if you don’t have enough wave action you going have problems.
HA: That’s why when it’s rough I’m happy. You see it’s good it’s, nice stirring the bottom.
KM: That’s right.
HA: It picks up all the oil, everything. Everybody talking about this, this, this... You know water been clear, I said, “Clear the water, you can see.” Look at the bay, the bay was nice had sand, and then when they went haul that sand to Maluhia when they made Maluhia Camp. The old people say, “Don’t you take the sand from Nāpo‘opo‘o and take ‘em.”
KM: They took sand from here?
HA: Yes and took ‘em to Ke‘ei.
KM: To take to Ke‘ei?
HA: Yes. They pour ‘em all on the road going into Ke‘ei, going to Maluhia.
KM: You’re kidding! Oh!
HA: The old people said, “If you’re going use something over there Ke‘ei, then use sand from Ke‘ei because they get plenty sand. Don’t take the sand from over here because then going come rough and they going take all the sand away.” And that’s just what happened. The big swell came and broke the heiau, went fill that whole thing with stone until today.
KM: Yes. And only pōhaku now?
HA: And only pōhaku, that’s just what it was.
KM: And it was interesting too ‘cause you even said that Alanui Aupuni, the old road before...
KM: Now, when they rebuilt the heiau they pushed the front end on top of the road so the road is gone.
HA: And then one time, the entrance was always there, and one time, somebody went move ‘um. “What the hell as long as I remember the entrance was here.” Even the old people were there.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: And then I was very upset when we did Henry O’s up here.
HA: We’re the ones who made Henry O’s.
HA: But then they went take the stone and brought ‘em up here. I was hot I pull ‘em on the side, “Take back this stone, you folks have no right to this stone because these stones was brought for Henry O., down at the heiau. What is this stone doing up here? You supposed to get your own stone that was the deal!”
HA: “Get your own stone. These stones don’t belong to you folks, it doesn’t belong to the state, it belongs to a particular place, so take it back!” They didn’t want to take it back. I said, “If it doesn’t belong to you, don’t take it!” Bumby you know people like that huhū, bumby you going get pilikia you know, those kinds of things, you know.
KM: ‘Ae, that’s how it is. But you know when they, hūpō...
KM: When they make that kind of work.
HA: Yes, sure.
KM: And you don’t think why would you go ‘ohi something from a place like that, you know?
HA: Just like one time you know, had the kū‘ula stone, the akule kū‘ula stone by the second piling. Then bumby I go in this bar and I look at this stone I tell this guy, “You know that stone look familiar.” And you know what it was? They guy said, “Should, you should know that stone.” I said, “That stone from Nāpo‘opo‘o, the kū‘ula stone.” He tell, “Yes.” And you know, later he died.
KM: Where was that kū‘ula?
HA: It was the kū‘ula on that pile of rocks there [pointing towards the Nāpo‘opo‘o landing]. That was for the akule. And he used to go over there go spot fish with Earl [Leslie], and one time he went go over there he took the stone... And that’s what he did.
KM: ‘Auwē! Did the stone come home?
HA: I think Earl them went go get ‘um.
KM: Good. Yes, you can’t mess around with those kinds of things... [Recorder off – back on; talking about salt stones in the Kāināliu vicinity].
HA: ...My wife saw the salt stones down there. One day, early in the morning I was down there, I saw Hooper, so I went over there to talk to grandma, down Kāināliu Beach. “Good morning, good morning. Grandma, over there by Honey House (Week’s old place), that’s where they used to make the salt?” She laugh, she said, “Billy, you heard what he said? How did you know?” I said, “Because we were over there looking at stones, and she told me come over here look.” It was one, only half pau. But my wife sees all that kind of stuff.
KM: Wow, good eye. Nice that salt when you make salt.
HaA: Oh yes, that’s the best.
HA: That’s the best salt.
HaA: You know before nobody used to walk down the beach so the salt is safe.
KM: That’s right, yes.
HaA: Now you have all kinds people just shi-shi all over the place.
KM: Terrible yeah, haumia.
HaA: So nice but you cannot eat it because you don’t know.
KM: And our own children we need to teach them again about it, that you don’t hana ‘ino you know. And you don’t just kāpae, throw your stuff around and what.
HA: Even look at the waterholes and what, you know.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: How they kāpulu that.
KM: Oh, aloha.
HA: Instead of ‘au‘au outside no they jump inside. You know once that thing get stuck up...everything even like Makalawena.
KM: That’s right.
HA: Way up in the brackish water. Because we used to go over there and the first time we go Makalawena, we stayed there we go one night. And then catch ‘a‘ama, one, two o’clock in the morning we walking around trying to find the waterhole, and Polto seen us walking around, but that is for ‘au‘au, you know. All those places get nice waterholes.
KM: They do, it’s amazing yeah.
HA: All get nice ones, so long as everybody mālama, it’s alright.
KM: That’s right. Well, and you know that Keawewai at Mahai‘ula where the windmill, beautiful those little ponds and stuff in there too.
KM: You know and all along that place.
HA: And Wilama, he always fixed the windmill, he was alright that man good in everything you know. And to him it was just like part his, he always took care.
HA: And had Johnny Mano, he used to go and check over, and Dego Badillio.
KM: That’s right. Mahalo, thank you so much.
HA: Nice talking to you.
KM: Nice talking to you. What I have to do is go home and get these transcribed a little bit... [Discussed group interview at Ke‘ei – see transcript of August 30, 2001]
HA: You know the thing is what’s happening here, just like they’re tyring to change this place you know fast enough you know. And I said, “What’s going to happen in years to come for the young ones?” Later on you going say, “Gee I remember when this place was like this.”
KM: Right, right.
HA: It’s too late, what’s gone is gone. I tell people you know you all going change. Your thinking changes when you get older. I keep telling them that you think it’s this way, but eventually you going change because you can’t keep on doing these kinds of things you know because it really pisses me off.
KM: There’s only so much.
HA: And like the Beach Road I go down there and I said, “I dive down here all my life just for make.” We go down there lu‘u, a little bit maybe little bit limu you know, poke little fish, and it’s enough. But now they taking everything away. So I said, “How these kids going get to the ocean if they keep doing this” And look at down there where they sold all this the front is out to the sand now how these people going get...this is the only sand they got and now it’s going be gone. Because of money, because of money and I said they talk... “It’s Kam School, when they think of Kam School they think of Hawaiians, yeah.” But I said, “Where is the Hawaiian...” I don’t see nothing coming from the na‘au, you know what I mean.
HA: [Discuss changes in the admissions policy – and need to address needs of Hawaiian children.]
HA: [Discussing different attitudes brought into community once land is sold] ...And then they have some of the haoles they come down here, you know. And they come and they sit down, and it doesn’t matter really who comes and who doesn’t come. They walk around here, go around, looking all around you know. I ask ‘em, “Excuse me, are you a surveyor?”
HA: They say, “Surveyor? Yes,” “Are you a surveyor?” I thought that you were looking at the four corners so I figure you surveying the place.”
HA: They say, “I don’t mind owning the place,” he go like that. Isaid, “Nah I think better if I own ‘em.”
HA: So he tell me, “Why?” I said, “You see when I own ‘em everybody’s enjoying.” I tell ‘em, “If you own ‘em, going be one big fence out there, and only you and everybody from the outside here going be looking in.”
KM: More worse borrow the word “kapu, keep out right!”
HA: Yes. You know I said, “Why I see you walking around, walking around I just wondering.” You know what I mean?
HA: Because just like had this one lady she real maha‘oi. She come inside they all like come, the kids when they come, they just throw everything down. And then when you like time for go, they think they own the place, they like tell you what for do. So I just told her one day, “Lady, you name me one country where the white man never go and they never screw ‘em all up. You know, name me one at least.” She went get so pissed off...now she’s mad with me.
KM: But you know it’s sad. You’re right, and yes there are good things you know, but it’s like what happened to the people of the land.
KM: They’re living in tents.
HA: Yes that’s right...
[Discusses changes at Parker Ranch and impacts on families] ...But you see the old people I tell everybody who raise horses, cows, I tell them “A rancher is not riding horse, a rancher is a grass farmer. He’s a farmer.” I was taught that, we raised cattle before. You mālama your land, that’s how you live.
KM: That’s right mālama ka ‘āina.
HA: But you see, never over stock. And that’s where the problem but you see when you bringing in people who think they know. I tell ‘em, “You know I think, when you say I think, then you don’t know. Because either you know or you don’t know. And no more getting this jazz about, ‘I think!’”
KM: Yes. Oh, you’re so right. If you don’t take care the land nothing else goes right?
HA: Because once it goes down.
KM: That’s right.
HA: It’s hard for you to bring it back and then that’s when you going start losing your dirt...But, you see when you have mānienie or kikuyu, whatever grass you had. Like Sherwood Greenwell them, you have to put the cattle inside to eat the grass so that water can go down.
KM: That’s right.
HA: Yes. When it rains that’s why the ‘ōhi‘a tree on top now is getting brown because not enough water is going to the top because the grass is high because they worrying about the koa trees, and the water can’t go down to the roots.
KM: That’s right.
HA: So now what’s happening. So you have to put the cattle in to control it, then that way you don’t have fire.
HA: You know because you keep ‘em down, you know then you take ‘em out again.
HA: You have to, because if not you going start losing all the ‘ōhi‘a.
KM: Yes, well and you know the other thing too, when it grows thick like that and what even the seeds can’t germinate.
HA: That’s right.
KM: So you no more new trees right?
HA: That’s right.
KM: You see the only time you open all your paddocks is dry weather, you have to find for food. And people like that who raise, they cutting the ēkoa, and I tell them, “You shouldn’t cut these big trees you know, the ēkoa trees that’s what will feed the animals when dry weather.”
HA: I used to go around everyday, I cut so many trees down the cattle follow in the back of me and they clean ‘um up. I said, nowadays they only like ride horse. They think cowboy is to ride horse, you don’t have to fix fence.
HA: You know...but you have to mālama your land. That’s why I say the Greenwells they were good caretakers of their lands. Roy Wall, the Paris’, everybody you know they good caretakers. Parker Ranch had their weed gangs.
KM: That’s right.
HA: You know they took care. That’s why I told the Bishop Estate guy, “These lands don’t come nice overnight you know and this is a lot of sweat.” And I get mad because of that.
KM: And it didn’t come all messed up overnight either.
HA: That’s right.
KM: Was years of not taking care.
HA: Yes, not taking care. You know funny, I worked from way back and I told people “You know why it’s a major problem? Because we always used to maintain. You only had so much where you always maintained our lines, we maintained everything.”
HA: You know, but now after I left, I said, “Nobody will ever walk through these areas now because I’m not there,” you know what I mean?
HA: But we knew everybody, and we were up and up with them we very up and up with everybody. And that way they will take care of you, you take care of them you know what I mean?
HA: You know what I mean?
KM: And people kōkua one side or another you get branding or you get drive or something everyone you know...
HA: We used to go to Sherwood’s, we go to outside Honomalino, we go McCandless. I used to go up from Bobby Hinds, Uncle Willie’s time, even Carlsmith. Was good days you know and such beautiful people, and you can never find those kind of people you know. I call them the golden people, “What do you call them?” I call them, “The golden people.” Because I tell them, “When they are gone, there’s no more replacement.”
HA: Just like Billy Paris, I help him with cattle sometimes.
HA: But I said, “You know I have a lot of respect for this man.” You know when he’s gone... [shaking his head], you appreciate him now. I said, “When he’s gone, he’s the last one.”
HA: You know.
KM: And it’s amazing how much he remembers you know.
HaA: Did you ever talk to him?
KM: Yes, a number of times. He hānau 1923 but he knows you know. I guess that was a privilege of his time and the family status.
HA: And he wanted to learn that.
KM: Yes, that’s right.
HA: Even driving from Kawanui, he knows all the little paddocks, we just driving cattle. He knows the name of this one here or this kuleana, adjoins the ma uka piece. Things like that, I give him credit, “Yes this man, he’s alright.”
HA: And you know he comes, like when he need help he come down even if he have to go drive down the coffee land look for us. Like with the Henry O., he kind of in touch with us all the time.
KM: Yes you know under the...I guess they all claim sort of a familial relationship with Ho‘omanawanui mā you know and stuff and how Henry ‘ōpūkaha‘ia.
HA: ‘ōpūkaha‘ia, old man Nahā used to live over here Kahauloa, he was like one kahuna pule everybody kind of respected him. He was kind of in with all the top people like the Paris’, whoever was around at that time. And we were kind of maka‘u this man, a little bit too you know. But he was a nice man and his grandson was named Henry ‘ōpūkaha‘ia, and a little older than us, a few years older than us. But he died. Anyway, I think that was the same family. He was a very sharp man you know this old man Nahā. Right over there in Kahauloa.
KM: Kahauloa. You know coming back to when you talk about old names like that ‘ōpūkaha‘ia that are familiar. Kekūhaupi‘o when we were talking earlier. The lot right below Pānui.
KM: Was Kekūhaupi‘o and that lot evidently just got sold not too long ago and someone...Thurston. Someone, Thurston’s are building a house or Twigg-Smith is building a house up there now.
HA: Oh yeah?
KM: But you know it’s too bad if they had known the value of that land in the history ‘cause that was his kuleana, Kekūhaupi‘o the descendent, even you know.
HA: I thought one Japanese owned it, what was his name...
KM: He sold it I think kū‘ai.
HA: [thinking] ...The place right ma kai, the gate that’s the only kuleana get already over there, anyhow ma kai the gate.
KM: Hmm. Pānui’s one is under Na‘ea, that’s where Pānui comes in. Right ma uka, one kuleana is Kauhi, that’s their tūtū also [pointing to locations on BE Map 824]. So Kauhi, Na‘ea, Makaiahai,, Kekūhaupi‘o and then just over was the old school lot. Just a couple lots over right there. You’ll see it on this map here [BE Map No. 824].
HA: Yes, because you know when I went out last, for one party we went to Hāilis, the Andrades the party over there. When I looked over and that Alice was there I said, “Alice, what happened to that stonewall supposed to be pili to the coconut tree?” She said, “Aha, aha that’s right, I showed them the picture about that.” She said that’s what Louie was saying that’s what I was trying to tell them.
KM: You had mentioned an Andrade that you asked if I’d spoke to. Who was that?
HaA: Katie Andrade.
KM: Katie Andrade, oh okay.
HA: She was raised over there.
KM: This one has the old kuleana showing on it. This is Bishop Estate Map 824, if you look right here so see Na‘ea?
KM: This is where Pānui is. The was Kauhi where the Kauhis lived that’s his kūpuna. Then you get Makaiahai.
HA: Yes this one here, I forget that Japanese name [thinking].
KM: And see this one Kekūhaupi‘o.
HA: Because I know way inside, where the navigator, Nāinoa is, Richard Toritomo had inside there too.
KM: Oh. See that would be right about here.
HA: Yes, right here.
KM: Interesting. When I went to visit Mr. Pānui in Honolulu, it was nice to talk story.
HA: Yes. Willie is nice, very nice. Because you know the wall... [Thinking] This map not that old?
KM: No, this is from 1920.
HA: Hmm. These are kuleana, there’s the wall [looking at map]. This was Hāili [Makaiahai].
KM: Yes, that’s right.
HA: This is now Mitchell. And this is where Katie them are.
KM: Oh, Kumahoa?
KM: This is the old school. Is this the old school lot? Oh right there, that’s it right there, the school lot.
HA: That’s Greenwell. Yes. But you see, before, everybody drove through here.
KM: ‘Ae. Yes, right there.
HA: And right to the beach, inside.
HA: But now they cannot go through this so they come down from this side.
KM: That’s right.
HA: But now you see by the wall, used to be pili to the coconut tree.
KM: Yes, uh-hmm.
HA: That’s what Alice was trying to say when they went to build the wall, “You folks are encroaching on the ocean side, and they cannot pass because supposed to be the wall. So when I went over there that night, I just went look over like that and I say, “Auwē Alice what happened over there, that wall supposed to be out by the coconut tree?” She said, “You see you know that’s what I was trying to tell them.”
KM: Yes. Because see they drew the... [Pointing to areas on map] Here’s the road this is the section comes in from your folks place over here ma kai the road comes you can see a little bit of a line there. But now this sections all washed out too, I think. You know the water is moved up more. So even part of the school lot is in the ocean, look like. ‘Cause the road went right through the old school lot.
KM: And along the edge of the walls though.
HA: You know like with Bishop Estate when they gave Kona Surf & Racquet Club like that.
KM: Yes, yes.
HA: And then they made all the hotels, and they moved out on the trails. But you no can put something on a flat thing ‘cause water going wash ‘em out. But, that’s how always get pilikia, they get pilikia even with the golf course they say people at night. People don’t want to work because they maka‘u work.
KM: Yes, sure.
HA: And because you going have that. You going have that problem right through because you see there’s no more respect. Then when you think about Kam School, the Hawaiians where’s the respect? They teaching ‘em how to speak Hawaiian but you know you got to teach them to have the Hawaiian heart. Teaching them Hawaiian and to speak Hawaiian that doesn’t make them Hawaiian at heart you know. That only teaches them how to talk Hawaiian, and that’s it you know but it’s not from here [pointing to heart], no.
HA: That’s how it goes you kow. And I hope the ones now, eventually as they get older their thinking going start changing you know but I hope it’s not too late. Because our ‘āina is just going... [discusses restoration of Kahikolu and Lanakila Churches]
KM: ...Pule mau that’s what you have to do, pule mau.
HA: Yes, that’s what you have to do.
KM: Mahalo so nice to get a chance to meet you.
HA: You, I tell you, I admire you. You’ve been all around, you met so many people what a terrific thing.
HA: Uh-hmm. Do you have another appointment to go to?
KM: I’m going to go and see somebody else later this afternoon. It’s so important you’ve got to make best use of the time. It’s so nice I keep hearing your name...anyway I really appreciate. What I’ll do is basic transcript of the information, I’m going to bring the recording home to you so the recording is just for you folks. And then you know maybe mo‘opuna, someone’s going to be interested too you know. I’ll transcribe out most of it. The whole idea is just so people understand about the land and how we should be working it, living it with one another.
HA: It’s hard you know because you just hope that they’re going to change their way of thinking. You know like the old people said you know “it’s not how much you make it’s how much you give.”
KM: That’s right.
HA: You know like people say, “hoo this old house.” We happy with this old house.
HA: Nobody wants to pay, so just live like this. We happy.
KM: Good old memories.
HA: I said we had good times. I tell them you know, “It’s what makes you happy.”
HA: That’s the thing you know. We’ve always been happy here.
HA: Howard likes to be down here, but he doesn’t go very much ma uka. I think the beach is better for him.
HA: Even my mama, when she lived here you know she used to say...when you think back, “it’s rough, it’s mālia, you never get tired looking at the ocean.” And that’s true but when you’re young, you don’t think too much of that until you get older, and then you say “this is golden, this is golden.”
KM: Look at this place, this, the pali.
KM: And it’s storied, Ka Pali Kapu o Keōua, Manuahi, Ka‘awaloa...
KM: Your ‘āina here, the history that you know.
HA: Like I used to sleep by the ‘ōpae pond [on the side of Hikiau Heiau], and I come home, she say “boy, where did you sleep night time?” “Outside by Masuhara house.” “Oh, that’s all burial ground over there.” But she said, “You lucky you from over here.”
HA: You know nothing bothers me you know.
KM: No. They know the heart.
HA: Yes they know. Only like Ka‘awaloa, my aunty, uncle Joe’s wife, “You boys no sleep over there.” Well, one night I sleep the wrong place so they moved me. I came home, we never say nothing. But she put on the light, “I told you damn kids don’t sleep down there.” But you know it’s minor we just slept the wrong place. I always telling people one time we went to the Red Hill.
KM: Pu‘u Ohau?
HA: Yes. And beautiful, we went in on the boat night time, Pō Kāne. We was going down south, for dive way down Kapu‘a. But then once we went in by Opala House. So we went into Opala Hosue, oh the beautiful show. Most times no show, but the whole place just light up, all around.
KM: Wow! Pu‘u Ohau?
HA: Right inside the bay, what’s the name of that bay over there?
KM: [Thinking] Nāwāwā?
HA: Yes, yes, yes right. Eh you boy, you’re sharp!
HA: Anyway right there and beautiful you know. Right outside on the ocean around the boat. Then I took one guy and the little boy up, catch ‘a‘ama. We had a 100 pound rice bag, jump in the water that night. Oh the lobster and stuff just so much. Nice show that was really nice show you know.
KM: Light all over there?
HA: Lights, just like somebody went all along the cliff. Then later go outside the ocean, outside. Nice show. And I said wow, right on!
KM: Get plenty stuff all out there too you know.
HA: But you know things that’s in the ground even like Kāināliu Beach.
HA: The animals, the one get scared. I went on a horse before when I was young, oh the horse went race. The only time he stopped was by the gate.
KM: For real? One place over there?
HA: Yes, the old house. And when I was telling this boy one time, “You know animal no go through this yard? They go down and come on the other side.” He said, “Oh yeah?” But I said, “That’s before when I used to come long time.” You know but this boy kind of looked about twenty years younger. Then he tell me, “The thing no pau.” I said, “Why? Go look where your dog?” I said, “I don’t know.” He said when he came to that gate he went all the way down the beach, and then when we came out the other side, he went meet us on the other side.
KM: For real!
HA: So he tell me “look like still here.” Then you know he told me one day, he tell me, “This man must have been a mean man” and I went look at him and I told him, “You know, I think you’re right and the animal sense this, they see.” I think they see the animals getting beat up inside this property. And finally they come you see that gate they go down the beach walk down the beach over there they come out the other side...
HA: So everything is there, and like the old railroad track you know the one go right through over there.
KM: Yes... Well, good. Mahalo, thank you folks so much, sorry I didn’t mean to take so much of your time.
HaA: No, no, no.
HA: Don’t worry about that... [End of interview]