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Ackerman, Howard (with Harriet Ackerman) - Part 2

Kepā Maly
August 2002

HA: Yes, but you see what is happening now with boundary lines when the equipment goes in, they’re scattering the wall.

KM: ‘Ae, ‘oki and cut ‘em up.

HA: You see that’s why because now they going say, “What wall, I didn’t see no wall, I never see no fence.”

KM: Yes.

HA: Because it’s gone. I seen things over here people they come and they ask me, and I tell ‘em how big it is you know around here because I kind of used to this. So they ask me, “What happened?” Well, the other side when claim ‘em. I said because the surveyor didn’t find the original pin, so he started making his own stations and shooting from there.

KM: That’s right.

HA: So now you have all these pins. So they ask me, “Do you know my boundary?” Oh sure I take ‘em to their boundary, so I tell ‘em “Okay when I go home I tie one ribbon up there.” I say all these lots supposed to be because they were all one lot, and later they went get ‘em back. So they ask me well how many do I have, because you short quarter acre, the balance is over here.

KM: That’s right.

HA: And there’s so many like that you know that went wrong.

KM: You know like you said the old walls and where the old pā hale like that for the lots. And you ‘oki those, everything gets changed then and then they put a wall where shouldn’t be like across your old trail or something.

HA: There’s so many that’s happening you know. Like below Honalo you know. And I went down after so many years one time going back down, we had these problem these boys took off so they asked me for go look for ‘em. So I went down and I looked for ‘um in lot of places that people don’t go no more you know.

KM: Hmm.

HA: All the old kuleanas. And I went down there and I was sad to say this when I came up I talked to one of the land owners. I said, you know when these people come back from Honolulu, the old people die. How they going to get in, they locked out, they locked out. Because these people took the trails, they took all the trails. And then the ones like down Keauhou, coming into Kawanui from the Keauhou side.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: You see had the old trail, yeah?

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: So they went talk to the landowners inside, if they can move the trail to the ma uka.

KM: That’s right.

HA: And that was the biggest mistake. Well now they put one lock on ‘em. I said, “Yes because it’s no longer the trail.” Now the trail is no longer there. This is their property if they want to put a lock on they going put a lock and you can’t get in. Because you folks when agree to give up the trail and that’s where the pilikia came from.

KM: Yes.

HA: So they said well, they never know that. I said, “That’s what happens you know.” Because these things like that and I said, “They so smooth talking, they say ‘no worry, no worry, no worry…’” Yes, no worry, yeah right.

KM: [chuckles]

HA: You know now, nalowale.

KM: Nalowale. You folks had no problem in your youth, walking?

HA: No, no.

KM: …along Ke‘ei out as far as Hōnaunau like that?

HA: No problem. Because people come through here, walk like that, “Hui, good morning aunty, good morning aunty.” And you know like us even until today, I work I come over, light company come here eat lunch whoever coming. The County come over here eat lunch, you know. Everybody until today they still come. I never stopped anybody and my nephew like come over from Honolulu I said, “Don’t you kick anybody out of there when you folks are here you know what I mean, because they are welcome to come here and eat lunch.”

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: They no kāpulu, it’s always been open just tell ‘em to come.

KM: It’s so nice, as long as they mālama.

HA: They mālama. I said “From grandma’s time, everybody was the same way. So don’t change nothing.”

KM: Yes.

HA: …You know, I come a little hūhū at times but you just got to kind of… Because to me when people go to make the changes it only gets worse. But what’s happening now what the County is okaying, and what the State is okaying a lot of times, along our shorelines that’s terrible, you know.

KM: Yes. So to you it’s really important that the shoreline areas be taken care of?

HA: You know now, already people having hard time. The State don’t…where are all these people going later? Now look Manini‘ōwali and all that area it’s all gone already now where are they going?

KM: Yes.

HA: You know they went get rid of ‘um fast, because they know people are going to grumble later. So now they get rid of it fast before these things happen. Now, how about their kids, their grandkids, where they going? Where can they go camping? Like this one girl I was just talking to, “Ho, you know uncle lucky we have boat, we have to go by boat and go stay down Kūki‘o. Uncle we no can go down by the car, lucky we have one boat so we go by ocean.” You know like Manini‘ōwali, had one family from way back. Every summer they used to stay there, you know. We never used to bother them we always used to see them and they always kept it nice and clean, and then we used to just past them when we stay Kūki‘o. You see everybody, the commercial fisherman before, the ones on canoe, before used to stay at Kūki‘o, the old house used to be there.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: And then they fish at night they sleep, and then they go Kona crab or something. Practically everybody did that, you know all the Japanese and whoever.

KM: Yes.

HA: But now what, what can you do now? You know lot of the old Japanese people I talk to they knew everybody who lived there.

KM: Yes.

HA: We used to go in from Mahai‘ula, my cousin Wilama Weeks, he used to go inside there and fix the engines like that, the old man Polto used to stay there with… [thinking]

KM: Annie?

HA: Yes.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: Oh, you know eh?

KM: Yes.

HA: Because you know one time I went over there and you know and I came home and I told mama, “Oh, we stayed Makalawena…at the house.” She said, “What house, there’s no more house there?” I said, “No,” anyway we started to argue. She said, “No, how that house look like?” I just told her, she said, “No, that’s the schoolhouse.” That’s the only building the rest is burned. She told me the next time you go back you go by the hardwood tree she said that’s where everybody’s buried.

KM: Yes, that’s right.

HA: Yes, because see her and daddy they were pretty good friends with Francis Brown. You know old man Francis Brown?

KM: I see, yes.

HA: He used to come inside anchor every time come up here drink. Him and his boys he had the two fastest speed boats, before.

KM: Yes, yes that’s right.

HA: And then he and Wilama was good friends too. I used to go with Wilama before we used to go into Mahai‘ula before we used to fix the windmill.

KM: Uh-hmm.

HA: And he always used to go back for clean the graves in the back. What was the name [thinking] the people who owned Mahai‘ula?

KM: Ka‘elemakule?

HA: Ka‘elemakule.

KM: John Ka‘elemakule.

HA: John. We used to go behind there go clean the graves.

KM: Behind? The back of Pāhoehoe on the rocks?

HA: Yes, yes.

KM: The old cave?

HA: Yes. We used to go in the back there.

KM: Yes, oh.

HA: Then Wilama, he said, “Oh, they sold this place, 1932.”

KM: Yes.

HA: Wilama used to go all over, there was another Japanese man used to go with us [thinking] and he used to be the cook and he knew everything. I told him, “Gee, how old you?” He told me, “When I was a young boy I was the cook on the boat.” Japan ship, he came to Hawai‘i was so beautiful he said he went…

KM: Jump?

HA: Skip, jump ship.

KM: [chuckling]

HA: And he said he used to go around there he knew everybody who lived there way back. Way back in the early ‘20s and then all the way over. He picked up so much knowledge from these old people you know.

KM: Yes. It’s so important though you know to talk story, and hear these little recollections. You know it’s really neat you know this whole idea. I get this real sense of family, community you know…Ke‘ei the families between here and what you know. Everyone just seems you folks worked together and it was interesting you said ‘ōpelu even for the big nets that they hui together buy the nets like that.

HA: Always even, with the akule everybody before…

KM: Akule.

HA: The Leslies like that, they never had enough money to buy all these nets so they went to all the merchants.

KM: I see.

HA: They all threw in their money and my father and everybody else threw in their money. And so everybody was entitled and they had old man Ushimura, he used to be a judge before, he was a lawyer. He was kind of the honcho who took care of the payments and the sales and stuff.

KM: Oh. Japanese man?

HA: Yes.

KM: Oh. Ushi…?

HA: Ushimura.

KM: Ushimura, oh.

HA: And he lived where the dentist, Nakamaro’s, that house.

KM: Oh.

HA: He and my father was good friends you know that man. And all the good kama‘āina Japanese from ma uka here.

KM: Yes.

HA: Because lot of them they worked for the mill. And the people from Kailua used to live here because, American Factors used to be here.

KM: That’s right back and forth that’s right Hackfeld, American Factors.

HA: Because lot of them they used to tell me, “You know we all family.” They said, “We all used to live Nāpo‘opo‘o.” They used to come in here for go dive for he‘e like that.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: You know, down here.

KM: Was good he‘e grounds out here?

HA: We don’t have the kind of he‘e grounds all in the pu‘u. You got to come mālama, no can make kāpulu inside.

KM: Yes [chuckling]

HA: That’s going to happen with all the lobster and stuff.

KM: Yes.

HA: They said you don’t clean, I tell people, “When you hemo, you clean.” Because that’s when the eel go back in.

KM: Yes.

HA: That’s when he go in and he stay in. And I tell you know the problem before people if you go and the lobster stay inside you leave ‘em alone.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: Because now you can’t get ‘em out you only going kill ‘em and you going and then the eel going in.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: So you wait until it comes out or something.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: We used to go early in the morning before the sun come up we go down the breaker and the lobster still outside, walking.

KM: Wow!

HA: So you only go you catch maybe one, two then pau.

KM: Pau.

HA: That’s enough.

KM: Was there someone, when you were young to teenage years like that was there still someone out here who was sort of looked to as sort of the lawai‘a nui, the main fisherman who when the ‘ōpelu were going or akule kū you know?

HA: The Leslies with the akule, like with the nets. Different ones like… [thinking] Uncle Pakiko you know, different ones.

KM: Pakiko?

HA: Pakiko lived down here, and tūtū Simon… [thinking] Kalua.

KM: Kalua.

HA: You see all those Kaluas, even if you know the Kalua girls some of them back here from Honolulu. They were all from here, even the Kalimas, the big Kalimas Jessie, Honey them, they all from here. They were close with my mother.

KM: Ahh.

HA: And before they come they serenade, and when they pau, they come park their bus in our yard. They’d stay down for a week or so…

KM: Did you have a favorite song for this area?

HA: No. There was a lot of entertainers down here, good entertainers…

KM: Nice though. Sounds like a wonderful community, such a beautiful place.

HA: When you born here, and they come up to the church, and they looking at the graves. “Hui, looking for tūtū’s grave?” They looked at me like that, ‘cause they don’t know who I am.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: I never seen these girls in my life too. They said, “How you know I’m looking for tūtū’s grave?” I see you walking around they said, “Do you know who my tūtū is?” I say, “Oh, yeah.” “How you know?” I say, “I know you looking for tūtū, she’s up there by the corner by the wall.” “Oh thank you.” And I said, “It’s only easy to tell, only easy to tell.” … I was telling somebody last night he and I used to drink with this guy Pila Keli‘i very good friends he and I used to be cowboys together and when he first came from Japan he worked for Paris. And then you know everything was free then. Milk was free, kill their own meat, the pigs so much pigs you live on all the wild pork. And he always talk about Uncle Sam. So they asked me, “Who is Uncle Sam?” “Uncle Sam Ho‘omanawanui.” “That’s his uncle?” “Oh yeah. If you tell ‘em otherwise you got to get up every morning six o’clock in the morning to fight ‘em.”

KM: [chuckling]

HA: That’s how this man is. He came, he worked for the ranch only fifteen years old. Uncle Sam taught him everything he knew. And then by then he went go CC Camp, then we came home. We raised cattle together. Uncle Sam was a very big man, very good cowboy, the old-timers they were very good. Like Joe Gang, they all the same bunch, you see. They all worked for Willie Roy. Like John Alika he worked for Willie Roy. Sam worked for Willie Roy and they were the best they had. Willie Roy used to raise pigs above [thinking] Ki‘ilae, yeah Ki‘ilae.

KM: Ki‘ilae, Kauleolī they had…

HA: …the pig pens

KM: That’s right, yes.

HA: Anyway that’s when Joe Gang was. They came under probation (from Maui) and they all came here. He came when he was fourteen years old, according to Alika. He said “I know all of them.” And then when their time was up they went back, but he stayed.

KM: He stayed, Joe Gang?

HA: Yes. That’s why when I go ma uka, when I was supposed to come home, going down the road, he tell me, “No boy you stay up.” “I got to go home work.” He just tell somebody when he reach down the road, the boy going stay up. I used to go up there every vacation before for chase wild cattle, go rope ‘āhius before.

KM: So up, you said you went up, you even built…?

HA: Yes, Komokawai, one time we went up, we hauled all the things from over here, above the shopping center, Sherwood Greenwell’s.

KM: Yes.

HA: We went haul ‘um up to Kahauloa, right above the small Kahauloa, right across, and we took ‘um to Hāpu‘u. Hāpu‘u is directly across that fence line. We took ‘um until there, and then later we took ‘um from there up to Komokawai. So that’s the structure, building, not the Quonset hut, that came up afterwards. It was all on the mules.

KM: Amazing! Some work you folks have gone through you know.

HA: I was young you know and go up. They like young people to go up because they saddle the mules, and every mule you got to watch out. They all shake hands and they kick you… [smiling] It’s been a lot of things, like working with wild cattle, it’s a lost thing now you know. Even like Miki Kato he always talk about it…you know Miki Kato?

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: Miki, because he started off from McCandless.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: Talking about the old-timers you know, Carl Hose, they were all good workers way back. From the old man Hose time and everything.

KM: Yes, yes. Henry?

HA: Henry Hose.

KM: Henry Hose.

HA: That’s one thing with the old people, there’s so much aloha. Even you know Pu‘uanahulu when I used to work outside there from 1955. When Sonny boy them was still going to Kam School and Ha‘o them.

KM: Yes.

HA: I was working on the road, we were bringing in the lines we were digging the holes first.

KM: You were putting in the road?

HA: No the lines.

KM: Was this the one for?

HA: The main power lines. I worked for Kona Light from way back, in late ’52 then later we transferred and we brought in the lines. You know those days before everything you dig the holes, you set the poles you put the wire. That’s where I got to know all of those people up there, and such beautiful people you know.

KM: Yes.

HA: That’s why I said you know all your life, you met so many beautiful people, true people you know.

KM: Yes.

HA: That’s why even her [indicating his wife], one time she was going to Hilo with my little boy, right by Pu‘uanahulu flat tire. Everybody used to saddle up over there you know. The Alapai’s, the Keākealani’s, they came, they know my car. “Hui, hello,” they start talking to her. They asked her, “Who are you?” Right there they fix all the tire everything.

KM: [chuckles] Nice, nui ke aloha!

HA: Oh yes, oh yes.

KM: Everyone was just they tied together family and good friends.

HA: That’s why I said, never mind, if only salt and poi, they invite you in. I said over here, used to have one old couple, they lived right by the gray house, this old, old house. They were good pig hunters, and they invite you in, even if they only had that.

You know what I kind of minamina was…like us we went up early. We got to get up 3:30 in the morning, we go work. So never had time for stay down. And my cousins, I wanted to because had this old man Kuohu who lived over here he used to go catch pā‘o‘o.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: By himself, and he go out on the canoe. Big kind pā‘o‘o! But he used the pāo‘o for bait. The pāo‘o, the skin hard to come off, and ti leaf. It’s a kind of lost art. I wanted my cousins for go for learn because for me I no can learn because for me I no can because every morning I go work early. But you know lot of them rather sleep then go. Kind of minamina all of those things.

KM: Who was this old man?

HA: Kuohu…[thinking] what was his first name? See a lot of these old people, I went bury them. But those days we was working, but like I said, my mother knew a lot. But you know, in those times we didn’t think.

KM: I know, aloha. Didn’t think, yeah.

HA: We never think. But I used to tell the other ones if you want to know go ask mama she know. My mother she was kind of good at those things. She had a stroke like that but lot of things kind of before she was kind of forgetful, then came back.

KM: That’s the really different thing about your mama them’s generation and before, their memory, their ability to recall family history you know. It is…

HA: Yes, the years, the dates, was mean.

KM: Yes.

HA: You know Thompson, the old man the grandfather from Maui. I always known grandpa, he used to come over, we lived close.

KM: The old man, Willie?

HA: No, no. Willie’s father. Uncle Willie’s father, and kind of look like Uncle Willie, tall, and good looking man, from Maui. [chuckling] All these buggas, they were cattle rustlers on Haleakalā…

KM: Now your sister married Willie’s?

HA: Son. He was a good man. Uncle Willie was a good man. He made a lot of good cowboys, very good cowboys. He made them good really good.

KM: Did you used to drive pipi down, from ma uka down to ma kai Ki‘ilae like that in the old pens they had down there?

HA: We, mostly they alaka‘i those calves down when we first went go up then later we hauled ‘em down with the trucks.

KM: Ahh.

HA: But like Joe Gang he the only man can lead plenty bulls down. But bulls after a little while they chase your horse all the way in. But he used, like two mules. He run ‘em from the first pen, down so far, then they kind of slow down. He tie ‘em up the thing is how you going make your rope so you can open ‘em as they go. Then later he bring down two or three, but nobody else can do that. Then he go back up and he change his mule, but he had practically all mules he only had few horses.

KM: Wow!

HA: But you see once people know, and I think common sense, if you want a good mule you breed ‘em with your best mare. And that way you always going get one good mule.

KM: That’s right.

HA: He had some good mules, I rode. I rode one he had was his choice, she was really good. They’re like horses they can run like horses, they can turn. He had one was his pet he named Pancake. She was good because he raised her. He call, she come to the door and she wait for her breakfast, because he gave her pancake and milk. But he named her Pancake because he raised her you know. She was a good mule too.

KM: Hard that kind of ranching, not like out in Parker Ranch kind, with the ‘āhiu and everything?

HA: No but you know they make good cowboys up here you know. Good cowboys. They ate well, work hard and you know something when you pau hana you hungry you eat. Ho they just cut you know the hipa like that, your eye bigger, and then you eat. You know our house you better eat everything or you going to get a whack you know.

KM: [chuckling]

HA: You know the old people they always make you feel good. “Boy, the ‘īlio got to eat too, you know.” Because they make you feel good you know. So nice those old people.

KM: Hmm. Uncle can I ask you a question?

HA: Yes, sure.

KM: You know the pali trail here [pointing to the Kealakekua pali section]?

HA: Yes.

KM: Did you ever walk that trail?

HA: Yes, yes.

KM: All the way up top?

HA: Not to the top. I used to go up there go catch pig a lot.

KM: Ahh. Along the old trail?

HA: Yes.

KM: That’s what we can see right, behind?

HA: Yes, yes. According to Uncle Joe he used to tell everybody used to come down through there.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: I go up come down and come down to the mill where the ‘ōpae pond you were talking about.

KM: ‘Ae, ‘ae.

HA: Get trails go up like that too.

KM: That’s right.

HA: And go up and catch that other trail go over.

KM: Yes. Kīloa and over.

HA: Yes. Only now if you kind of watch sometime on those trails I don’t know now because, I remember one time the water went kind of wash out one time. One night I went fall down inside.

KM: Oh. It’s so amazing ‘cause you know and see that’s the thing sad…this is the old Alanui Aupuni the trail cut down [pointing out location on map].

HA: Hmm.

KM: And the trail you were talking about from Keauhou, but they went move ‘em right, on the Bishop Estate section?

HA: Yes.

KM: Lekeleke like that.

HA: Yes.

KM: Pushed it in.

HA: Yes.

KM: You know. So the old trail wipe out.

HA: And now it’s theirs.

KM: Yes.

HA: It’s supposed to be the trail moved over and join in, but now they lock ‘em and they say, “Oh, this is our property this no longer exists,” you know.

KM: This trail is some history though.

HA: Yes. And you know a lot of things… You see why when I was small. I lead home the horses with the cattle. We leave our house Kāināliu and we come gallop across. We come from Kāināliu and we come, gallop across and we come right above where the service station is up here…

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: Get the Cordeiro’s up there, meet up with them we come all the way down the road and we hit down here by the old Nāpo‘opo‘o School.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: We meet the old man Gaspar them, Vinhasa them, and then we all gallop, come down through the trail come down through there.

KM: ‘Ae, Palipoko.

HA: And we come here. Then we ship cattle.

KM: Out of here?

HA: Yes. Out of the bay used to be all white sand down there.

KM: Oh wow, yes. Where all rocks now.

HA: There, get the big holding pen. The big holding pen face the small holding pen. So you know where the heiau is?

KM: Yes.

HA: Right there on the north side of the heiau.

KM: Yes, Hikiau.

HA: Had one pen.

KM: That’s where they hold the pipi for ship.

HA: The big pen up here you see when you come down right below the mill.

KM: Yes.

HA: You see nice dirt.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: They used to lock all the cattle up here.

KM: Oh.

HA: And then there’s a big holding pen a big wall, high wall behind here. Right above… [thinking] oh my, Kahauloa.

KM: Kahauloa.

HA: And then they bring all the cattle on to the big pen, the cattle kind of wild. And then this one here feed the small pen and then shipping horses, shipping out.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: Because used to be all white sand.

KM: Right.

HA: The sand used to be so white and so shiny and the water used to be so clear that you can’t leave the horse there you know because they get seasick and they would fall.

KM: Wow!

HA: But sometime when it’s rough that’s where the problem is you know, because the rider sometime go off, [chuckling] and lot of these guys cannot swim so they hang on to the horses tail.

KM: ‘Auwē [chuckling]!

HA: The horse will swim ‘um out. And the guys on the barge, they were very good. Then, when they pau, they all get drunk so I lead the horses.

KM: You were still shipping to World War II time?

HA: Yes.

KM: After World War II no more or pau?

HA: No, no pau. But they use small kids, so I just ride the horses home, climb up on the side, you ride. You know like the old man [thinking] Cordeiro’s horses and old man Gaspar’s horse he ride one over here and then just switch. That’s the only time he get for change his horses…

KM: Yes.

HA: ...Then we go up, I go up to the old man Cordeiro, leave so many horses off over there
and then the rest I take to Kāināliu. Then from Keauhou you know the bay. We come along the Beach Road.

KM: Yes, yes. And then come up Kawanui or?

HA: I come up to Kāināliu. I come out through there, ‘cause Uncle Sam stayed at Kāināliu.

KM: That’s right, ma kai?

HA: Yes.

KM: And so go up.

HA: I come until there, me and him, and from there I come up.

KM: Who was the other old man... [Thinking] Ka‘ilikini?

HA: Yes, yes.

KM: Ka‘ilikini?

HA: Yes, Ka‘ilikini.

KM: Oh, I guess down Honalo side like that.

HA: He’s a character too that old man.

KM: Yes, oh.

HA: Old man Keawe.

KM: Keawe Ka‘ilikini.

HA: Yes. He used to come over here sometime my father hear the horse he said “Turn off all the lights, turn off all the lights...” [Chuckling] And the old man Naluahine, he used to come up to the shop. They all come talk story... And Mrs. Roy, when they were building houses along the Beach Road [Ali‘i Drive], she would call the old man to bless the houses. Aunty Josephine would say, “You better send Howard to go get that old man.” He was such a good cowboy...

All those old guys, they were a lot of fun... You know one thing I’m fortunate, the old people, they had something you know, fear or what. I watched this old man Henriques, he was a very nice person. At the shop, they used to bring all of those big laho ‘oles that they trap, and this man come up, he un-tie ‘em, and I never seen one pig turn on him. I said, “You know this man not one animal turn on this man,” I think it’s because when these pigs are all babies, they see this man on a horse, and walking around, from the time they are babies. Later he castrate ‘um all, but they all know this man. They smell him, they know who he is... Sometimes people ask me certain things like that about the animals. ‘āhiu, how can you get close to ‘em? I tell ‘um, “Your shirt, when you pau hana, soak ‘um in the water trough. Then they all come drink water, and they smell and come ma‘a with you. Simple things, so they know who you are.

KM: Yes, wow! Thank you, see it’s nice to talk story. Mahalo! [Recorder off, then back on]

HA: ...Because you know if you don’t have enough wave action you going have problems.

KM: Yes.

HA: That’s why when it’s rough I’m happy. You see it’s good it’s, nice stirring the bottom.

KM: That’s right.

HA: It picks up all the oil, everything. Everybody talking about this, this, this... You know water been clear, I said, “Clear the water, you can see.” Look at the bay, the bay was nice had sand, and then when they went haul that sand to Maluhia when they made Maluhia Camp. The old people say, “Don’t you take the sand from Nāpo‘opo‘o and take ‘em.”

KM: They took sand from here?

HA: Yes and took ‘em to Ke‘ei.

KM: To take to Ke‘ei?

HA: Yes. They pour ‘em all on the road going into Ke‘ei, going to Maluhia.

KM: You’re kidding! Oh!

HA: The old people said, “If you’re going use something over there Ke‘ei, then use sand from Ke‘ei because they get plenty sand. Don’t take the sand from over here because then going come rough and they going take all the sand away.” And that’s just what happened. The big swell came and broke the heiau, went fill that whole thing with stone until today.

KM: Yes. And only pōhaku now?

HA: And only pōhaku, that’s just what it was.

KM: And it was interesting too ‘cause you even said that Alanui Aupuni, the old road before...

HA: Yes.

KM: Now, when they rebuilt the heiau they pushed the front end on top of the road so the road is gone.

HA: And then one time, the entrance was always there, and one time, somebody went move ‘um. “What the hell as long as I remember the entrance was here.” Even the old people were there.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: And then I was very upset when we did Henry O’s up here.

KM: Yes.

HA: We’re the ones who made Henry O’s.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: But then they went take the stone and brought ‘em up here. I was hot I pull ‘em on the side, “Take back this stone, you folks have no right to this stone because these stones was brought for Henry O., down at the heiau. What is this stone doing up here? You supposed to get your own stone that was the deal!”

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: “Get your own stone. These stones don’t belong to you folks, it doesn’t belong to the state, it belongs to a particular place, so take it back!” They didn’t want to take it back. I said, “If it doesn’t belong to you, don’t take it!” Bumby you know people like that huhū, bumby you going get pilikia you know, those kinds of things, you know.

KM: ‘Ae, that’s how it is. But you know when they, hūpō...

HA: Yes.

KM: When they make that kind of work.

HA: Yes, sure.

KM: And you don’t think why would you go ‘ohi something from a place like that, you know?

HA: Just like one time you know, had the kū‘ula stone, the akule kū‘ula stone by the second piling. Then bumby I go in this bar and I look at this stone I tell this guy, “You know that stone look familiar.” And you know what it was? They guy said, “Should, you should know that stone.” I said, “That stone from Nāpo‘opo‘o, the kū‘ula stone.” He tell, “Yes.” And you know, later he died.

KM: Where was that kū‘ula?

HA: It was the kū‘ula on that pile of rocks there [pointing towards the Nāpo‘opo‘o landing]. That was for the akule. And he used to go over there go spot fish with Earl [Leslie], and one time he went go over there he took the stone... And that’s what he did.

KM: ‘Auwē! Did the stone come home?

HA: I think Earl them went go get ‘um.

KM: Good. Yes, you can’t mess around with those kinds of things... [Recorder off – back on; talking about salt stones in the Kāināliu vicinity].

HA: ...My wife saw the salt stones down there. One day, early in the morning I was down there, I saw Hooper, so I went over there to talk to grandma, down Kāināliu Beach. “Good morning, good morning. Grandma, over there by Honey House (Week’s old place), that’s where they used to make the salt?” She laugh, she said, “Billy, you heard what he said? How did you know?” I said, “Because we were over there looking at stones, and she told me come over here look.” It was one, only half pau. But my wife sees all that kind of stuff.

KM: Wow, good eye. Nice that salt when you make salt.

HaA: Oh yes, that’s the best.

HA: That’s the best salt.

HaA: You know before nobody used to walk down the beach so the salt is safe.

KM: That’s right, yes.

HaA: Now you have all kinds people just shi-shi all over the place.

KM: Terrible yeah, haumia.

HaA: So nice but you cannot eat it because you don’t know.

KM: And our own children we need to teach them again about it, that you don’t hana ‘ino you know. And you don’t just kāpae, throw your stuff around and what.

HA: Even look at the waterholes and what, you know.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: How they kāpulu that.

KM: Oh, aloha.

HA: Instead of ‘au‘au outside no they jump inside. You know once that thing get stuck up...everything even like Makalawena.

KM: That’s right.

HA: Way up in the brackish water. Because we used to go over there and the first time we go Makalawena, we stayed there we go one night. And then catch ‘a‘ama, one, two o’clock in the morning we walking around trying to find the waterhole, and Polto seen us walking around, but that is for ‘au‘au, you know. All those places get nice waterholes.

KM: They do, it’s amazing yeah.

HA: All get nice ones, so long as everybody mālama, it’s alright.

KM: That’s right. Well, and you know that Keawewai at Mahai‘ula where the windmill, beautiful those little ponds and stuff in there too.

HA: Yes.

HaA: Uh-hmm.

KM: You know and all along that place.

HA: And Wilama, he always fixed the windmill, he was alright that man good in everything you know. And to him it was just like part his, he always took care.

KM: Yes.

HA: And had Johnny Mano, he used to go and check over, and Dego Badillio.

KM: That’s right. Mahalo, thank you so much.

HA: Nice talking to you.

KM: Nice talking to you. What I have to do is go home and get these transcribed a little bit... [Discussed group interview at Ke‘ei – see transcript of August 30, 2001]

HA: You know the thing is what’s happening here, just like they’re tyring to change this place you know fast enough you know. And I said, “What’s going to happen in years to come for the young ones?” Later on you going say, “Gee I remember when this place was like this.”

KM: Right, right.

HA: It’s too late, what’s gone is gone. I tell people you know you all going change. Your thinking changes when you get older. I keep telling them that you think it’s this way, but eventually you going change because you can’t keep on doing these kinds of things you know because it really pisses me off.

KM: There’s only so much.

HA: And like the Beach Road I go down there and I said, “I dive down here all my life just for make.” We go down there lu‘u, a little bit maybe little bit limu you know, poke little fish, and it’s enough. But now they taking everything away. So I said, “How these kids going get to the ocean if they keep doing this” And look at down there where they sold all this the front is out to the sand now how these people going get...this is the only sand they got and now it’s going be gone. Because of money, because of money and I said they talk... “It’s Kam School, when they think of Kam School they think of Hawaiians, yeah.” But I said, “Where is the Hawaiian...” I don’t see nothing coming from the na‘au, you know what I mean.

: [Discuss changes in the admissions policy – and need to address needs of Hawaiian children.]

HA: [Discussing different attitudes brought into community once land is sold] ...And then they have some of the haoles they come down here, you know. And they come and they sit down, and it doesn’t matter really who comes and who doesn’t come. They walk around here, go around, looking all around you know. I ask ‘em, “Excuse me, are you a surveyor?”

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: They say, “Surveyor? Yes,” “Are you a surveyor?” I thought that you were looking at the four corners so I figure you surveying the place.”

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: They say, “I don’t mind owning the place,” he go like that. Isaid, “Nah I think better if I own ‘em.”

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: So he tell me, “Why?” I said, “You see when I own ‘em everybody’s enjoying.” I tell ‘em, “If you own ‘em, going be one big fence out there, and only you and everybody from the outside here going be looking in.”

KM: More worse borrow the word “kapu, keep out right!”

HaA: [Chuckling]

HA: Yes. You know I said, “Why I see you walking around, walking around I just wondering.” You know what I mean?

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: Because just like had this one lady she real maha‘oi. She come inside they all like come, the kids when they come, they just throw everything down. And then when you like time for go, they think they own the place, they like tell you what for do. So I just told her one day, “Lady, you name me one country where the white man never go and they never screw ‘em all up. You know, name me one at least.” She went get so pissed she’s mad with me.

KM: But you know it’s sad. You’re right, and yes there are good things you know, but it’s like what happened to the people of the land.

HaA: Yes.

KM: They’re living in tents.

HA: Yes that’s right...

[Discusses changes at Parker Ranch and impacts on families] ...But you see the old people I tell everybody who raise horses, cows, I tell them “A rancher is not riding horse, a rancher is a grass farmer. He’s a farmer.” I was taught that, we raised cattle before. You mālama your land, that’s how you live.

KM: That’s right mālama ka ‘āina.

HA: But you see, never over stock. And that’s where the problem but you see when you bringing in people who think they know. I tell ‘em, “You know I think, when you say I think, then you don’t know. Because either you know or you don’t know. And no more getting this jazz about, ‘I think!’”

KM: Yes. Oh, you’re so right. If you don’t take care the land nothing else goes right?

HA: Because once it goes down.

KM: That’s right.

HA: It’s hard for you to bring it back and then that’s when you going start losing your dirt...But, you see when you have mānienie or kikuyu, whatever grass you had. Like Sherwood Greenwell them, you have to put the cattle inside to eat the grass so that water can go down.

KM: That’s right.

HA: Yes. When it rains that’s why the ‘ōhi‘a tree on top now is getting brown because not enough water is going to the top because the grass is high because they worrying about the koa trees, and the water can’t go down to the roots.

KM: That’s right.

HA: So now what’s happening. So you have to put the cattle in to control it, then that way you don’t have fire.

KM: Yes.

HA: You know because you keep ‘em down, you know then you take ‘em out again.

KM: Yes.

HA: You have to, because if not you going start losing all the ‘ōhi‘a.

KM: Yes, well and you know the other thing too, when it grows thick like that and what even the seeds can’t germinate.

HA: That’s right.

KM: So you no more new trees right?

HA: That’s right.

KM: You see the only time you open all your paddocks is dry weather, you have to find for food. And people like that who raise, they cutting the ēkoa, and I tell them, “You shouldn’t cut these big trees you know, the ēkoa trees that’s what will feed the animals when dry weather.”

KM: Yes.

HA: I used to go around everyday, I cut so many trees down the cattle follow in the back of me and they clean ‘um up. I said, nowadays they only like ride horse. They think cowboy is to ride horse, you don’t have to fix fence.

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: You know...but you have to mālama your land. That’s why I say the Greenwells they were good caretakers of their lands. Roy Wall, the Paris’, everybody you know they good caretakers. Parker Ranch had their weed gangs.

KM: That’s right.

HA: You know they took care. That’s why I told the Bishop Estate guy, “These lands don’t come nice overnight you know and this is a lot of sweat.” And I get mad because of that.

KM: And it didn’t come all messed up overnight either.

HA: That’s right.

KM: Was years of not taking care.

HA: Yes, not taking care. You know funny, I worked from way back and I told people “You know why it’s a major problem? Because we always used to maintain. You only had so much where you always maintained our lines, we maintained everything.”

KM: Yes.

HA: You know, but now after I left, I said, “Nobody will ever walk through these areas now because I’m not there,” you know what I mean?

KM: Yes.

HA: But we knew everybody, and we were up and up with them we very up and up with everybody. And that way they will take care of you, you take care of them you know what I mean?

KM: Yes.

HA: You know what I mean?

KM: And people kōkua one side or another you get branding or you get drive or something everyone you know...

HA: We used to go to Sherwood’s, we go to outside Honomalino, we go McCandless. I used to go up from Bobby Hinds, Uncle Willie’s time, even Carlsmith. Was good days you know and such beautiful people, and you can never find those kind of people you know. I call them the golden people, “What do you call them?” I call them, “The golden people.” Because I tell them, “When they are gone, there’s no more replacement.”

KM: Yes.

HA: Just like Billy Paris, I help him with cattle sometimes.

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: But I said, “You know I have a lot of respect for this man.” You know when he’s gone... [shaking his head], you appreciate him now. I said, “When he’s gone, he’s the last one.”

KM: Yes.

HA: You know.

KM: And it’s amazing how much he remembers you know.

HA: Unreal.

HaA: Did you ever talk to him?

KM: Yes, a number of times. He hānau 1923 but he knows you know. I guess that was a privilege of his time and the family status.

HA: And he wanted to learn that.

KM: Yes, that’s right.

HA: Even driving from Kawanui, he knows all the little paddocks, we just driving cattle. He knows the name of this one here or this kuleana, adjoins the ma uka piece. Things like that, I give him credit, “Yes this man, he’s alright.”

KM: Yes.

HA: And you know he comes, like when he need help he come down even if he have to go drive down the coffee land look for us. Like with the Henry O., he kind of in touch with us all the time.

KM: Yes you know under the...I guess they all claim sort of a familial relationship with Ho‘omanawanui mā you know and stuff and how Henry ‘ōpūkaha‘ia.

HA: ‘ōpūkaha‘ia, old man Nahā used to live over here Kahauloa, he was like one kahuna pule everybody kind of respected him. He was kind of in with all the top people like the Paris’, whoever was around at that time. And we were kind of maka‘u this man, a little bit too you know. But he was a nice man and his grandson was named Henry ‘ōpūkaha‘ia, and a little older than us, a few years older than us. But he died. Anyway, I think that was the same family. He was a very sharp man you know this old man Nahā. Right over there in Kahauloa.

KM: Kahauloa. You know coming back to when you talk about old names like that ‘ōpūkaha‘ia that are familiar. Kekūhaupi‘o when we were talking earlier. The lot right below Pānui.

HA: Uh-hmm.

KM: Was Kekūhaupi‘o and that lot evidently just got sold not too long ago and someone...Thurston. Someone, Thurston’s are building a house or Twigg-Smith is building a house up there now.

HA: Oh yeah?

KM: But you know it’s too bad if they had known the value of that land in the history ‘cause that was his kuleana, Kekūhaupi‘o the descendent, even you know.

HA: I thought one Japanese owned it, what was his name...

KM: He sold it I think kū‘ai.

HA: [thinking] ...The place right ma kai, the gate that’s the only kuleana get already over there, anyhow ma kai the gate.

KM: Hmm. Pānui’s one is under Na‘ea, that’s where Pānui comes in. Right ma uka, one kuleana is Kauhi, that’s their tūtū also [pointing to locations on BE Map 824]. So Kauhi, Na‘ea, Makaiahai,, Kekūhaupi‘o and then just over was the old school lot. Just a couple lots over right there. You’ll see it on this map here [BE Map No. 824].

HA: Yes, because you know when I went out last, for one party we went to Hāilis, the Andrades the party over there. When I looked over and that Alice was there I said, “Alice, what happened to that stonewall supposed to be pili to the coconut tree?” She said, “Aha, aha that’s right, I showed them the picture about that.” She said that’s what Louie was saying that’s what I was trying to tell them.

KM: You had mentioned an Andrade that you asked if I’d spoke to. Who was that?

HA: Katie.

HaA: Katie Andrade.

KM: Katie Andrade, oh okay.

HA: She was raised over there.

KM: This one has the old kuleana showing on it. This is Bishop Estate Map 824, if you look right here so see Na‘ea?

HA: Yes.

KM: This is where Pānui is. The was Kauhi where the Kauhis lived that’s his kūpuna. Then you get Makaiahai.

HA: Yes this one here, I forget that Japanese name [thinking].

KM: And see this one Kekūhaupi‘o.

HaA: Hmm.

HA: Because I know way inside, where the navigator, Nāinoa is, Richard Toritomo had inside there too.

KM: Oh. See that would be right about here.

HA: Yes, right here.

KM: Interesting. When I went to visit Mr. Pānui in Honolulu, it was nice to talk story.

HA: Yes. Willie is nice, very nice. Because you know the wall... [Thinking] This map not that old?

KM: No, this is from 1920.

HA: Hmm. These are kuleana, there’s the wall [looking at map]. This was Hāili [Makaiahai].

KM: Yes, that’s right.

HA: This is now Mitchell. And this is where Katie them are.

KM: Oh, Kumahoa?

HA: Yes.

KM: This is the old school. Is this the old school lot? Oh right there, that’s it right there, the school lot.

HA: That’s Greenwell. Yes. But you see, before, everybody drove through here.

KM: ‘Ae. Yes, right there.

HA: And right to the beach, inside.

KM: Yes.

HA: But now they cannot go through this so they come down from this side.

KM: That’s right.

HA: But now you see by the wall, used to be pili to the coconut tree.

KM: Yes, uh-hmm.

HA: That’s what Alice was trying to say when they went to build the wall, “You folks are encroaching on the ocean side, and they cannot pass because supposed to be the wall. So when I went over there that night, I just went look over like that and I say, “Auwē Alice what happened over there, that wall supposed to be out by the coconut tree?” She said, “You see you know that’s what I was trying to tell them.”

KM: Yes. Because see they drew the... [Pointing to areas on map] Here’s the road this is the section comes in from your folks place over here ma kai the road comes you can see a little bit of a line there. But now this sections all washed out too, I think. You know the water is moved up more. So even part of the school lot is in the ocean, look like. ‘Cause the road went right through the old school lot.

HaA: Uh-hmm.

KM: And along the edge of the walls though.

HA: You know like with Bishop Estate when they gave Kona Surf & Racquet Club like that.

KM: Yes, yes.

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